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Poll: Do you like the business model?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, Aug 19, 2013.

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Do you like the announced business model?

  1. Yes

    63.5%
  2. Mostly yes

    21.8%
  3. Mostly no

    7.6%
  4. No

    7.3%
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  1. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    The model itself is not bad, but it has a major flaw, that some buyers could see as false advertisement...

    CREDDs will not be cheap. I imagine they will cost quite a bit of gold. So, what will happen with the players that buy the game, play for 30 days, and still do not make enough gold to buy a CREDD? The whole Play-to-pay deal will go down the drain... What if the CREDDs keep going up in price (due to the large demand), and you cannot simply get enough gold in a month to pay for it? Those people will be out of luck, out of a game, and FORCED to pay a subscription if they want to keep playing. It will simply look bad, when people come up to the end of their time, and SURPRISE!!! no more time for you, tough luck Bob...

    Instead of the "Whaddup... You can stay...", it will be "Waddup... Get lost..."

    So I understand the model, I understand the mechanic, and it works great in EVE, because they never sold the PLEX idea as a good source of play time. It was just optional. But the way it is being advertised in Wildstar, is just wrong... Way wrong... Lots of people WILL be disappointed, and out of game time, and FORCED to subscribe (which was not what the business model was presented as).

    So I have to say I mostly dislike it, not because of the model itself, but the way they are presenting it... Bad form...
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  2. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Wouldn't that mean that the people selling the credd wouldn't make anything...because nobody could make enough gold to buy it? So you are saying that the sellers will just let the credd cards sit there on the CX forever and not get anything for them?
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  3. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Then they should just lower the price next to nothing, so that your $20 are wasted to get some measly gold? People will stop selling CREDDs because they are not worth it...

    If you want to see that system in action, check out EVE. They have the same system. Right now, the PLEX is worth around 580M ISK. A new player has no chance to make that money in a month. Even some of the met time players would have a pretty hard time getting that money in a month. It would take a lot of "work" to get it...

    So no, the CREDD system will only work if CREDDs are expensive (they have to be attractive). And that goes against the play-to-pay model.
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  4. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Eve's system is also time limited. Ie The only reason that brand new players cannot generate enough Isk is due to the amount of time training takes to get yourself into a position to do so. Considering that CCP closely manages just how much Plex is in the system, and therefore its price, they are clearly ok with the general price. We do not know if that is the case with Wildstar yet or not, or even if Wildstar will have this problem.
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  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    you're going too extreme, they won't lower the price to next to nothing, they would keep lowering the price until those cards started to sell, just like you do with wool and leather on the AH. If nobody buys your stuff, then you put it back on the AH at a lower price and keep doing that until someone does start buying it.
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  6. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    The problem is that it may not be enough to keep the people playing for free... I mean, how many hours would be "OK" to farm to play the game for free? 1 a day? 2? 4? 6??

    The way the business model is being presented is misleading. It is telling me I can play to pay to my hearts content. However, that may not be true in every case. Specially for new players.

    Look, I'm not lying here. This is what it says on their page:

    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/the-game/business-model/

    "If you go for C.R.E.D.D. you can use your first month of gameplay to earn gold while playing WildStar. Next month, instead of paying the monthly subscription fee, you can use gold earned in-game to purchase C.R.E.D.D. from other players through our in-game Commodities Exchange."

    That sentence is flawed. It does not say you MAY get enough gold to keep playing, or you may have to subscribe at the end of the 1st month. It simply says you CAN do it... The problem is, some people will NOT be able to do it, even if they play lots of hours (specially newer players). That in itself will make people feel cheated.
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  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    They do not need to say may, that is inherent in the statement. The amount that Credd costs in game is not set by Carbine, as such its out of their control. You will only feel cheated if you are stupid.
  8. Daynejah

    Daynejah Cupcake

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    Mostly dislike- I understand the model and I understand CREDD and I understand while Wildstar feels it is worthy of a sub.

    However, it isn't something I'm interested in. I don't see myself as a player who could earn CREDD and yet I don't have time to play enough to justify a sub. Would have preferred a more tiered system.
  9. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    As I crafter I would like crafting to be able to do the best stuff actually. That being said I can understand some bounds in respect to raiding. I can accept that raiding provides the best gear. However ideally I am hoping crafting will be able to match that provided some required mats drop just from raids for example. That being said from what I understood from what Carbine spoke off around. I think the game will have the best gear drop for raiding but that gear will be the best gear just for raids, outside pve / pvp will have other best gear which crafter can craft. Seems confusion, maybe I misunderstood or maybe I cant imagine how they're going to do that. We'll have to wait and see.

    In either case based on other games not everyone raids. So to some degree or other I have a feeling this problem will exist. Then again there is a downside to everything and its kind ahard to know what works and what doesnt before you try it out so I cant blame Carbine for trying to balance people who dont mind paying a sub with those who do not want to.
  10. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    It would still be pay to win. if this is the case there are two sides, one good on bad.

    The good is, it makes for an amazing game for a crafter. If I put in the effort, raid, get the best chips etc.. I can then crafter some great gear other crafters who dont go through my effort will not be able to match and being such gear will be rarer I can charge a premium for it. Awesome

    The bad is now people selling credd can get the best gear with essentially 0 effort. The crafter had to get the recipes, the materials, raid for months till s/he got the best chip to go with the gear s/he intended to create and the buyer had just to invest 5 minutes to take out his / her credit card. Some players might not mind that but a lot will be angry at saving yourself months of raiding with a credit card.

    This could also impact things like server first etc.. We dont know how looting is going to work so this is all speculation on my part however if someone who doesnt buy in game money has to raid and gets say I dont know 1 piece a month that matches the stats s/he wants thus taking I dont know 6 months to fully gear up (dont know how many armor pieces there are so this number is factually bogus) which then puts me in a position to go for server first for that really hard dungeon that requires a good build / gear someone with a credit card might be able to get done in 3 months... 3 months raiding / waiting for crafters to do their raiding and start crafting /selling that BIS, 5 minutes to buy whatever s/he has remaining.

    Again Disclaimer: all of this is just speculation on my part. Carbine are intelligent people, I am sure they thought off this and perhaps they found a solution to avoid and its just me who cannot think of a way around it. I am not saying WS is pay to win, we just dont know yet and dont have enough information for any conclusions. This is nothing more then a concern on my part.
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  11. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    I can confirm what he is saying. I have 6years+ character on eve and yeah I could do 580m in a month, but it would be a whole month spent on doing just that. Playing like I usually do I wouldnt come close to that not by a long shot.
  12. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    You're absolutely right problem is you'll be competing with 3 different players. Those who farm 24/7 and make tons of gold cause in some way I simply cannot imagine they find making gold more fun then playing a game. Those who buy gold from gold sellers hoping to just pay a fraction of the subscription cost. Gold sellers themselves hoping to reduce their cost of doing business.

    Again eve is a good example. I never bought a plex cause 580m seems to much to me. Actually I remember them selling for 420m and that too was too much for me. I would have bought 1 a month if they were say 100m yet they never got low enough to be affordable by me. Why? because people who play in a way that make a ton more in game money then me afford them way before I do. Not just that but the supply is just too limited. There will be always more people who want to play for free, or have a second account for free then people who want to sell the stuff so chances are prices will keep going up as farmers keep getting richer and richer.
  13. Nearo

    Nearo Cupcake

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    I personally disagree. I think if it was split up more, that would result in more people making smaller transactions of buying CREDD to sell, among other things.
    The more transactions going on, the more undercutting happens. Which in turn would make it a little more reliable to be able to get enough for more within a month, thanks to more undercutting and more transactions with those, like the original guy to say this adding CREDD to system. It would to a small degree cut down how much the seller would get for their CREDD, but in turn it would allow getting some gold without having to put a ton in, I guess in a way it might lower carbine's profits with less large transactions potentially, though in converse lots more of them.
    Regardless of profit end, it'd definitely help inflation, I think the good of it would outbalance the 'bad.'
    It'd make me rest at ease a whole lot more for Wildstar's payment model being not necessarily completely p2p though. Especially if it did in fact get cut into days instead of just the smaller amounts that needed to be combined.
    It seems like in either case it'd lower some inflation, though if it was in bits that allowed you days of playing, it'd allow more casual players to only play when they wanted to. I guess Carbine might not want that though, preferring players to pay whole months, in which case having to collect up a certain amount to total up to a normal month would be fine as well.
    99% of my dislike for the current system would go away if it was implemented to smaller amounts, though.
    Regardless though, I will be playing either way so I guess my view on the matter doesn't matter, payin' either way.
    *Edit*
    Oh, as for why I'm total no, even though I'll be paying it anyways; is well, I really hate P2P games on a psychological level, I have plenty of time to play usually, and I can manage the costs, but it really does make me feel like I'm wasting money every second I'm not playing. Yes, ever little piece of a penny. Obviously this is purely psychological, and has nothing to do with the business model technically, but it really does leave a bad taste in my mouth. To further that.
    I agree about the point that this kinda model with CREDD adds room for more gold greed on servers, as well as the fact that AS IS, I don't believe CREDD will be affordable in gold anyways, unless a /ton/ of players all get CREDD listed alll the time non stop, it's gonna still inflate pretty bad.
    I've played other popular games with premium exchange, even ones that don't require it per month can get pretty bad, when you take into account that any player who doesn't wanna spend more money is gonna want to buy them as well, that would seem to outweigh those who want some easy gold by far, unless gold can really get a ton of things even players less interested in housing and such would want. Meanwhile if appeal gets too high, P2W and all that.
    Though what I think is gonna happen is CREDD just inflates to a godly level, regardless of the auto cheapest sells system, which has been in other games.
    Oh also, as for the $60 starting fee, I got a bit of beef with it considering it deters friends from trying WS in the future. Yes, there's some free trials that come with it, but I've already gotten more than 10 friends interested in Wildstar.
    None of them are interested enough to pay $60 though, though perhaps would've done just base fee, and yeah- 3 of em could then, plus there's a probable open beta I suppose, but that wouldn't apply to friends later down the road, either.
    Most of my friends are pretty casual, and honestly so am I. I love some really good combat and such, I'd like to be able to raids and stuff in the future, but at heart my favorite part of a game is just chilling somewhere, and in the case of Wildstar, housing.
    And man, y'know, screw anyone who's like "lol go away casual we don't want you" cause that's seriously messed up, c'mon guys. Everyone has a right to enjoy a game. If they don't wanna pay it, then yeah too bad for them. However that's no reason to hate on someone who loves and supports the game with a slightly different enjoyment level, like a third of posts I've seen since business model was released were like "rooted out the casuals yay" well thanks for the warm cozy companionship.
    Welp, this is my casual take on it, anyways. I like Wildstar regardless, a lot.
  14. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is where i don't think you understand, what i said was the chips used to make this gear the ''best'' would NOT be sellable, this means you can't craft your gear with it then sell that piece of gear either.

    This means the gear being crafted would be the ''best'' gear available, but it would still be missing the best chip that makes it BiS. someone would then buy the item off the auction house and need to go and do the raid to get the chip that makes the item even better.
  15. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    That would reduce the problem of pay to win a little but it would now have a negative effect on crafting. Why would I ever buy crafted gear if I have to raid anyway and still get the gear anyway just to get the chip? Basically except for a few cases where someone gets lucky and gets the chip they want before the gear with stats they want there would be no reason to buy any crafted gear. And considering that afaik there are many more chip combination then there are gear stat combination that will not happen very often.
  16. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well this is yet another problem, as you are going to hit problem after problem if you want to be able to craft the BiS gear. hence why it is much better for the game to just not have people crafting the best gear.
  17. Borz

    Borz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except that Eve world runs on money, and it has single worldwide economy.

    Important part there - most people are spending those 20$ to earn ingame currency, so purpose of item - subscription or cosmetic stuff - does not matter.


    You listed Eve as your example of "real-money-into-ingame-currency-trading", and pointed out how hard it is to earn enough money for them.
    Well, guess what, there are more games that offer this kind of trading, and unlike Eve, they do not run on money.
    WoW gave its people Guardian Cub 2 years ago, not sure if there is any new item with same purpose, but it'll do. Wowhead states it's AH price at around 8k gold. Looking at farming guides for WoW they advertise pulling 6k per hour. No idea what is current 'easy average', but 1/3 of guide value should be safe bet, 2k. 10$ per cub, 8k gold per cub, 2k gold per hour, so average worth of hour of farming is 2.5$.
    SWTOR almost whole cash shop is sellable to other players trough GTN. Real money price on money shop currency is constant, exchange rate to ingame currency is mostly established, and usuall ratio is 1$ = 100k credits. Coincidentally, 100k is what you gain on average for hour of farming.
    In WoW, 'attractive' price for 20$ is equivalent of 8 hours of farming.
    In SWTOR, 'attractive' price for 20$ is equivalent of 20 hours of farming.
    Both of those games are much closer to Wildstar in regards to gameplay and earning money than Eve.


    People are panicking based on worst case scenario. Meybe it'll come true, maybe it won't, looking at more than one game suggests that it'll really be easly farmable.
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  18. Rek

    Rek Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the problem here is assuming their are equal numbers buyers and sellers each month. If there are more buyer's then sellers then the price will rise and people will miss out. The rising price may attract new sellers which will lower the price as per supply and demand but their will still be people not able to earn enough gold who may feel lied to.

    If the difference in supply and demand differ greatly then their may be no middle ground. $20 is a hefty price for something you could earn yourself. Hense why I think it should be smaller quantities to increase the amount of potential suppliers.
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  19. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    Its a balance. The point of crafting is to use and sell the stuff you craft. Credd makes purchasing stuff relatively trivial. So they're like directly opposing each other. The more power you give crafting the more damage credd will do. The more you try to limit the damage done by credd the worst crafting will be :( thats why I said I am afraid credd will make crafter loose no matter what :(

    Its not that simple if you can craft bis gear whats the point of crafting?
  20. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well balance is good, but they can't go and change the mechanics in their game if it is something that can so heavily be effected by supply and demand (the gear). instead it is easier to go and basically let crafters make ''entry'' level, or ''mid'' level gear to get people capable of doing the higher end stuff (pvp or pve, whatever tickles your fancy).
    A system where crafters supply the stepping stones for new max level characters, works. So trying to find a balance somewhere is less appealing when there is already a perfectly functional design of it.

    Although it would be nice (i agree with your points), it just isn't such a viable thing without taking some pretty serious risks.
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