1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Poll: Which raid size do you prefer participating in at end-game?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Kahlan, Feb 23, 2013.

?

Which raid size do you prefer participating in at end-game?

  1. 10

    41.1%
  2. 15

    17.9%
  3. 20

    30.5%
  4. 25

    21.1%
  5. 30

    2.1%
  6. 35

    1.1%
  7. 40

    43.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    505
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I'm with you here. The content should be different and, if the best way to progress at Elder game is thru gear, then the gear should fit the content where it is rewarded. I look forward to the day someone comes up with something other than gear as a means of progression. I think that is the biggest reason for angst between the players. People always want the best and think they should have it no matter how they play. But that's another thread.
  2. Brightag

    Brightag Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    What other details are you most looking forward to hearing about? I'm interested in these events they mentioned that were supposedly turned off.
  3. cali

    cali Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Likes Received:
    169
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I like the idea of 5 mans to gear up for 20 mans to gear up for 40 mans. It's just nice to see a linear progression in endgame pve group content that gives you harder goals to work for. Achieving all of the goals in the game should be hard and take a lot of work. Some groups it takes longer than others but if they stick with it they'll get there. Raids shouldn't be pug-friendly, they should require you to create friendships with other players on your server in order to accomplish something truly rewarding.
    John and Drasas like this.
  4. Morggause

    Morggause Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Removing the RPG from MMORPG, that's a sad idea and i do hope it will never happens.

    Considering we know (for now) that there will be 40 and 20 man raid, talking about 10 man raid isn't gonna lead us anywhere,
    plus I can see how make things work (painfully!) to have two 20man group in a guilds, but having four 10man group looks impossible to me, in term of management, that would means having a certain roster 4 time, but this roster maybe can't fusion to get the proper roster for the 40man raid, plus you need more people benched every raid because you need 2 times more safety for 4x10man group than 2x20man.

    My point here is about hardcore guild, for player who are going to NEED to clear 100% of the pve content (assuming we can get more than 1 competitive guild per server with 50+player per guild :x ).
  5. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I found 40 man raids to be too hard on the social organization. It favored the massive group over a core of more skilled players. 10 mans it went the other way - the social organization part of the raid game was completely gone and it was all about video game skillz. 25's are the sweet spot I think.

    If you really want to make it completely about video game skillz and not have to deal with anyone that's not 100% in simpatico with you then why not ask for 2 man raids? You could make them harder than any raid content ever made before and since the majority of the player base are solo it makes sense to cater to them, right? Clearly, 2 man raid would be five times better than 10 man raids!
    John likes this.
  6. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    354
    Trophy Points:
    63
    40 mans are so hard to organize. I think 20 is the sweet spot.
    Mudfin and Morggause like this.
  7. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    It's all about having good leadership. Healing officers, tanking officers, DPS officers, raid leaders, etc. A solid chain of command solves so many problems with organization.
    Mudfin and Black Wolf like this.
  8. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    354
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Even then it's still a hassle to get 40 people online.
    Mudfin likes this.
  9. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    It can be, but from the guilds I've taken part in we always had plenty of people online and ready to go at raiding time. We'd typically have to send a group into AQ 20 while we worked on 40.
  10. VooDoo

    VooDoo Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    28
    thats more of an exception to what usually happens in MMO's as opposed to what commonly happens. There are large guilds out there that have no issue with meeting this sort of content regularly, but theyre on the fringe when looking at guilds and players as a whole through the entire player base.
    Auryn, Azzurri and Mudfin like this.
  11. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    Exactly this. Guilds are different beasts than they were when Warcraft came out because the playerbase is different. Guilds have evolved. The way people approach guilds has evolved. The way people approach end-game content has evolved. Guilds fall apart more regularly than they stay together. Good guilds at end-game is the exception, not the rule, because the community is far more diverse than it used to be.
  12. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    I wouldn't call it 'evolved', more like 'changed' and for the worse imo. Like you said, guilds fall apart more often, I don't consider that a step in the right direction. Most MMOs are very pug friendly now, devaluing the need for guilds. The reason you see so few good guilds at end game is because the game systems are designed to not really need guilds for the majority of content. Throw in that MMOs cater to a very unloyal demographic of casual fringe gamers, and of course your going to have trouble forming legitimate raiding guilds that can field a 40 man team.

    The goods news is that all those problems are correctable. Game systems can be designed to discourage random pugs, content can be designed to require guilds, and the game can cater to true gamers instead of fringe ones. Do that and I think you'll see a lot of healthy endgame guilds.
    JarNod, Alverad and Drasas like this.
  13. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    629
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Whole different topic but I agree with you John!

    It stems from "back in the day" need reliable people with which to team up to access the content and reap the rewards. Those bonds were strong because as anyone who was there back then will tell you, you shared blood, sweat and tears in additional to probably the best laughs you've ever had.

    It began eroding when accessibility was introduced... suddenly, players didn't require as much team structure to accomplish their goals. This was great for the people that were not guild-minded and solo, not a good thing for the guild-minded though because now they were all in the same pot.

    In my mind, group content (whatever size) in an MMO should be sacred ground. All group content should be designed under the assumption that players are a well-practiced team who communicates with each other well. Also, if the raid was designed for X number of players, then that's what it should take. No "smaller versions".

    My belief is there shouldn't be accommodations made to facilitate getting solo players into group content. They should gain access to it by forming relationships with fellow players and entering it organically that way.
    John and Drasas like this.
  14. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Guilds have become unimportant for player progression in World of Casualcraft. Fully purple without even talking to players, you can see all the story content, run dungeons, and PVP without talking to a single person. This is what has to change. The community has to communicate again. It's become a single-player game within an MMO and it can't be allowed to dictate what happens in the genre.
    Yakzan and John like this.
  15. VooDoo

    VooDoo Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    28
    we're unsheathing a double edged sword here. The reason why group finder and raid finder mechanics were put in place were to get more people involved in the content. Fragmentation of the player base came before this, which is why it was put in place to begin with.

    *edited for too much derailment*

    anyway, totally off topic and I appologize. It is a worthy topic though :)
  16. Ingsoc

    Ingsoc Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    <Admin Hat> All the posters in this thread need to lay off any type of baiting - ZR </Admin Hat>
    Auryn likes this.
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Welcome to the internet :p
  18. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    In order for it to be correctable, you have to alienate people that were drawn in by those systems. So, yes, you'll have the pool of the hard-core to work from - and video games go back to being the elite boys' club they were all along. You'll lose everyone else. Again, profitability problem incoming. True gamers and hard-core gamers are the fringe - not vice versa. Unfortunately, social games make it very clear the hard-core demographic is edging smaller and smaller. Console game sales are way down from last year and casual game play is up. I was just asked to participate in a LiveStream event about this very problem. It doesn't mean that hard-core games should go away. But it's like this community is completely unwilling or incapable of acknowledging the problems that sit before them. The problem with MMOs was that it was niche to begin with and there is a pervading mentality that wants to separate community. ZapRobo was absolutely correct when he shut the last forum about raid size down. Because really, this has been akin to a civil war where one half doesn't want the other half of the community. Those who have been in favor of 10-mans here have not been interested in removing 40-mans, only being allowed to exist among those want 40-mans. The opposite has been true of people who want 40-mans. (Not all of them. Because a couple people have acknowledged 10-mans would be awesome.) Accessibility is not the devil. You can dress it up and paint it however you like, but what you're doing is demonizing people for the way they enjoy things. It's perfectly fine to like things the way you like them. What is wrong, in my opinion, is to try and take what other people like away from them.

    That said, I won't be posting on this topic any more. Clearly, we're not changing anyone's opinion and this conversation hasn't been productive. It's recycled.
  19. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    I don't think i've seen anyone say they don't want 10 mans. The only argument I've seen is that people don't want 10 man versions of 40 mans. I would love to see unique 40 mans and unique 10 mans, everyone gets the group size they want that way.
    You nailed it on the head. MMOs were a niche. A niche that was aimed at gamers. By its very nature, MMOs are a gamer's game. They aren't your standard 'pickup and play' FPS or racing game. There is a journey in MMOs, its slow, its a process, its detailed. These are not attributes that the casual gamer is looking for. When you try to change MMOs to market them at the casual gamer, you strip away the very essence of what an MMO is.

    By all accounts that I can see, you yourself are a gamer. So why do you want to appeal to the mass casual audience? Doing that will only cheapen the experience for actual gamers like us. I will agree that social 'app' games are big now, but do you really think that is a good thing? I don't want to see an MMO that is modeled after Farmville.
    MMOs may be a niche, but there is still plenty of true gamers out there to support it.
    Drasas and Yakzan like this.
  20. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Likes Received:
    1,613
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Youngstown, OH
    Why is it whenever I get a report for content it's almost always on a thread dedicated to raiding? Can everyone please stay both civil, and respectful in here so I don't have to lock this one as well?

    I'd appreciate it!

Share This Page