Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Midgard Serpent, Sep 11, 2013.
How about I blow you up instead?
Go with the Draken Warrior. Exiles are for noobs.
You wouldn't be able to. I would simply deconstruct the particles of the explosion before they could hit me with my mind. Yeah, mental toughness bro.
Dominion is for pansies. Their only redeeming factor is the draken. Space lizards are just awesome.
Aurin and mental toughness do not belong in the same sentence. They are basically the pets of Human exiles.
Dominion or GTFO!
And yet aurin can be espers. Ony strong minds can bend matter to their will. Mental toughness.
If you could come up with an original, new class for Wildstar, what would it be? What would their portion of the holy trinity be? healer/DPS, DPS/Tank, Tank/Healer? What weapon would they use? What races would the class be available to?
6 classes at launch is... not enough IMHO. But maybe they can split in 2 subclasses just like SWTOR. Which I kinda hope for.
6 classes but WAY more class options!!!
6 classes times 40-50/10 LAS settups + combination of Milestones + difference stats/effects some gear have effects on them to boost spells, this way it could affect your LAS and your entire settup for your class option) + mayby another way of talents (they are working on it).
Now tell me once again why it isn't enough to have around 50+ options to pick a class.....
What do you even think a class in WS is? Cause I can say you 1 thing: It isn't the same as in some other games. Let's take WoW (since most people know it or have played it), Each class had the same spells, the only difference came from talents + stats/gear....so around 9-15 class options (Druid had the most though). In WS the class options will be far more then 9-15 a class!
Having the LAS system kinda makes the class options 5 times higher then someother games! Now if they will have the milestone + talents in it then it will be even higher!
And then I haven't talked about the differences in the visual aspect of the game
It's possible there could be enough skills to give the classes a variety of playstyles but it remains to be seen. Race, weapon, and armor restrictions will still be in place either way and the aesthetics of a class is about as important as how the class plays. LAS might create a sense of uniqueness by limiting the capacity of players to react to situations in combat but all that is is an illusion of diversity, not that I'm necessarily against LAS so long as its done well but that ALSO remains to be seen.
Hard time seeing how out of all of the 50 or so skills per class that all of them will be incredibly unique from one another. Especially given the fact that Wildstar is trinity based, several skills will operate very similarly although their telegraphs might be different as will the particle effects. LAS will again create an artificial sense of diversity when really all that's being done is being pigeonholed.
Wildstar IMO needs more classes but we're stuck with 6 for now. It's possible the last 2 classes could add the spice that the game needs but we have to wait and see. In short, I wouldn't be so confident that 6 classes will be just fine. It's still possible that everything will turn out well, but those last 2 classes will have to be wildly creative and AMAZING ideas on Carbine's part. It's a tall order that I find hard for Carbine to meet.
PS: This is written seriously and specially your second part that I quoted...that's just rubish.
It opens up so much for the tactical side of PvP (Which i'm a huge fan of!).
All that matters to me is what options I have in combat. LAS reduces that unless Carbine can design properly scaled, low CD, multi-purpose abilities. Therefore, even if I can have several sets of skills, it's not really an excuse to have fewer classes when I can't play my whole class role (DPS or heal/tank in this case) in combat. You can do that in WoW, but not Wildstar. This may not be a big deal, but it really depends on how Carbine designs class skills.
The point I was trying to make is that some skills in a limited, specialized role based games will become very similar to each other in their combat effects. The problem with your example is that while those spells have different telegraphs and particle effects, they serve different purposes, or at least they did when I played. AE was just a spammable AoE damage spell used to kill off clusters of mobs or players. CoC however is a frontal cone that while doing damage, acts as a soft CC for pursuers. They're totally different in their functionality and practical use.
I wasn't even arguing some of the points you seem to be making so I'll let them slide. All I was getting at is that having 50 or so skills per class (this is important BTW) makes it highly probable that some abilities will not be very different from each other. I only have a problem with this when it's made into an argument about how diverse Wildstar's classes will be when this information is no indication of that at all, especially when WoW classes are pretty specific in theme and playstyle when having approximately the same amount of skills. All Wildstar classes will be is ability restricted compared to the capabilities of WoW classes UNLESS Carbine can give skills multiple uses without making them OP or on long CDs.
It gives you choices by limiting them through mechanics. Sure it can enforce strategic organization of the LAS but that's beside the point. Wildstar's classes are not suddenly more expansive and diverse by restricting what they can do in combat. That's all I'm getting at.
Probably because we're not talking about the same things. I would like more classes at release because I can't see the current cast being a diverse enough cast of options when you consider the current array of aesthetics and skills. It won't happen, not at release, but it's my personal opinion. I could come up with a few solid class concepts that would fit Wildstar just right that I'd like to see in the game in some form. Lots of possibilities.
Again, all of this might not matter if Carbine can do an outstanding job with the classes and make them far more expansive and interesting than they seem. They'd have to come up with the best class designs in MMO history and I am not exaggerating to pull this one off. I'm a natural skeptic, so all I can do is wait to see what Carbine offers us.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing about LAS or how it'll impact PvP in Wildstar. I don't think we'd disagree on any of that. I'm just making my case as to why I feel 6 classes just doesn't appear to be enough, especially considering how generic classes like the warrior and stalker appear to be.
Actually changing telegraphs changes drastically how skills are use, for instance take a straight line telegraph versus a cone telegraph. This creates positioning requirements, as well as the cone being easier to aim. The other thing they can do is make "sniper" style abilities which have a long (ish) cooldown, but a small telegraph, but very very powerful. Another thing they can do is use the telegraph to balance out the ability. In other words, if it's a 1.5 second delay and a relatively small AoE, then it takes more skill to use than an instant cast massive AoE.
Actually this is the case. They will be much more diverse when they are limited in their action sets. While each class could theoretically fill a few specific roles which overlap, they can't do it all the time. If you allow the full set of abilities, classes become a lot more homogenized at any given moment, and that's what really matters. Here's another thing, if you take team comp into consideration, it only matters the specializations that classes can potentially play. This means you have a limited number of possible roles able to be filled based on your team.
In WoW, on the other hand, which gives limitless action slots (or effectively limitless) it means that you instead fill your team based on class specifically, because of gear distributions and buffs. Since Wildstar has large groups and few classes it's less likely that you'll be forced to bring along a player because they happen to be the class you need, or forced to turn down a player because your certain class slot is filled. So, it gives freedom in the right spots, and diversity is more natural, and team comps more flexible.
This means you have a chance for it to work out so groups don't simply stack one class, and the developers don't have to force groups to diversify. This is of course just a chance to work out, and not a certainty. It's better if they can make this diversity happen organically because of the structure of classes as opposed to engineering classes so that players are forced to diversify.
Again, all of this might not matter if Carbine can do an outstanding job with the classes and make them far more expansive and interesting than they seem. They'd have to come up with the best class designs in MMO history and I am not exaggerating to pull this one off. I'm a natural skeptic, so all I can do is wait to see what Carbine offers us.[/quote]
Are these ideas also not somehow completely overlapped by current classes? I think they've got a pretty good array for launch, and it'd be hard to force in other classes. Especially because the variability of the classes with the CBC system. So, I think it's better they're waiting until they have niches which the classes they currently have cannot fill. The other thing is, it's easier to balance with 6 classes than 8 classes, and balance is extremely important for launch. Also, brand new game with brand new IP, it's hard to say that all the classes aren't going to fill something that most players find "fun."
I don't think they'll have all the gaps filled perfectly, but I think clear niches and gaps will emerge and Carbine can fill them as needed. But, I don't think they're needed for launch.
I mean warrior looks like it's going to be able to do big bursty damage, huge AoE's, or control the battlefield, stalker doesn't look like a generic "rogue" at all. They have missiles, proximity mines, no combo points, stealth, so they'll use the environment, and positioning for combat. Esper looks like it'll be able to have a lot of range variation, and a utility belt to deal with lots of different instances. It even looks like Esper could fight at melee range successfully.
I don't think there's enough info to say for certain whether or not there's enough variation in the classes, but there's enough to say there certainly COULD be enough. Basically from math done in various threads on WSC there's most likely going to be between 50 and 100 builds with distinct variations on playstyle.
I don't disagree with anything you stated here but it isn't related to the premise I am arguing. It's possible Carbine can diversify the 50 or so skills each class will get so that they're all substantially unique, cohesive with several other skills, and all adequately balanced against each other and other class' skills. However, I am very skeptical that Carbine can pull it off. I'm hopeful, but I'm also being realistic.
If the aggregate of all class skills compared to other class skills makes them more homogenized, then the classes are homogenized even if this is limited in combat since most or all classes will have very similar skills. LAS only acts as a means to limit what can be done in a combat scenario and creates the illusion of class diversity. There are subjective benefits to a LAS system but I'm not talking about specific combat roles or scenarios. I'm talking about the whole capacity of a class to play a myriad of ways with a myriad of styles and skill aesthetics. These things combined define the class and the whole of the classes is what concerns me about the current number and set of classes.
Most of this is due to Wildstar hosting larger raids. PvP might be a different scenario but that is a moot point. LAS helps with this too but this is not really what I'm arguing. Again I'm concerned about the whole of what classes will be capable of, not what kind of specific roles can be filled in a raid. That can be done with or without LAS, but the former requires exceptional class design and potentially a minimum number of classes. It's the former I care about in this discussion.
If the warrior and stalker classes are far more diversified in how they play than what I am imagining, then that would alleviate much of my concerns, assuming most playstyles are competitively viable. The esper looks to be a little too narrowly focused as a class as well but I can imagine the esper doing a lot more than what I can with the other two. The final two classes will really define how good Wildstar's class composition will be which is why I'm so anxious for the class reveals and has the potential to be a dealbreaker for me depending on what the final classes are.
I may actually main an esper if they can be viable in PvP and PvE as a "melee caster" so to speak. Still hoping I can play a melee tank class instead though.
Not really at all. Think about it. Each class has BOTH support role and dps role. This means there's 50 total abilities 25 of which are heal/tank oriented and 25 are dps oriented. I don't doubt they can do 25 distinctly unique skills, even if there's a little bit of overlap between other classes, as long as you can't do the same effective build as another class, these abilities play completely differently with the other possibilities.
Not really... so let's take it this way, let's say there's 10 LAS slots. Class A has a stun and giant nuke that's rolled into one ability, but it's a really small telegraph, with a relatively long cooldown. Class B has a stun ability that's a small telegraph and a short cooldown, and a nuke that's a giant telegraph with a medium cooldown. Even if the other 9 abilities are EXACTLY the same, the classes will play differently, because one will have to choose between a nuke or a stun, and the other has to be very specific with it's use, because a miss means you have a long period you can't do any stun/nuke. This then constrains when the abilities are used in combat.
I think 6 classes can cover the main specific builds needed to give each a unique feel and experience, and then possibly adding in more classes once it is certain that gaps exist.
You have to remember what the LAS does to the classes though. Each player needs at least one personal cooldown, on top of their normal role. Some will be asked to grab certain utility abilities, all of these things then limit their slots available further, thereby limiting their potential builds. Some builds may need 8 slots, while others need 5. I understand that you think the classes won't be robust enough to cover enough playstyles, but honestly I don't see any information to support this theory. If we permutate the potential possible combinations of abilities it's in the millions. Also, look at the original Guild Wars, it's ability mechanic was extremely similar, and you could play each class vastly different and as viable builds.
I think you're seeing warrior as the usual warrior, but it has an arm cannon, and a utility belt on his arm. Stalker you probably see as your normal rogue, but that's not really close to what it is at all.
I know for a fact they have a spammable "melee" skill that's an AoE cone in front of the Esper. You have to remember the majority of the gameplay for each class we've seen is <level 20. Do you remember how many spells you had in any other game at level 20? That's where classes REALLY start diversifying into their roles. So, if you're basing your thoughts on current gameplay vids, yes each one looks exactly the same.
I should clarify what I meant. My concerns are with the ability for Carbine to diversify while maintaining viability of most of the skills of a set role for each class. With around 25 skills per role (assuming the number of skills is roughly equal between roles), the possibility for diverse playstyles is possible under LAS but diverse enough that the class can play completely differently from another playstyle as the same class and role? That is TOUGH and I don't know if Carbine can or is even trying to do so.
My concerns with the number of Wildstar classes is the "themes" you can play as. Right now we a got a front-line combatant, a psychic illusionist and sorcerer, a ranged quick-firing magic gunner, and a tech-enhanced assassin. The other two are mysteries, even if we happen to know their names through leaks. It really hinges on those last two but having one or two classes, JUST one or perhaps two more than 6 would make me feel a lot better. Right now I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to learn about these final classes and hoping that the class I like can be played by the races I like because I'm not confident at this point that there'll be enough choice for me to find the right class for me.
You are talking about how classes would play within the LAS. I am talking about the whole of possibilities that a class can perform compared to other classes. In particular, it is the themes that each class conveys and how it is translated to the skill arsenal these classes have. My argument has nothing to do with combat options.
We may be using the term "playstyle" differently here. What I mean by playstyle constitutes more than just how the mechanics function but how the class feels, how it looks as it uses its skills and how the whole of the class can be defined in a specific role. For example, WoW's enhancement shaman is an elemental berserker while an unholy death knight is a plague-inducing cleaver. Both speak to how each class/role feels and plays without going into details. You could also call these class "themes".
What I am getting at is that I have concerns that there won't be enough of these all-encompassing "themes" at WildStar's launch to create a truly diverse pool of classes that feel distinct from each other and fit comfortably into the game world. I personally don't see enough information out there that indicates that my concerns won't be realized, but I hope the release classes do end up being more expansive than what I imagine them to be. A lot of my concerns can be alleviated with the right information, but for now I'm still skeptical.
Hopefully this does take place and with the other 4 classes as well. I'm seeing what I can see based on past discussions here and whatever information I've been able to find on each class. So far, that is about exactly what I see from those two thus far and if they happen to be a lot more than their stereotypical archetypes imply, then that is good news.
Yeah, I'd agree here. But wouldn't adding more classes simply exacerbate this situation? Adding more classes means you have to narrow each class's roles in order to create a different "playstyle" within the class. I think the other thing is that, while some people will play pure roles, there will be a need for things like dps with some control aspects (especially in raiding). So, this further divides the 50 ability pool. I think it's easy to make a class play completely differently (especially dps wise). I think that some abilities will have some overlap (like they have more damage but smaller telegraph, therefore take more skill) that 25 abilities isn't to the point of being in the spectrum of being difficult to make different.
I don't know what gap another 1 or 2 would fill. Since there's no "pure dps" or "pure support" classes, you really don't need the additional token classes. You get 3 separate classes for tanks which each will probably have 2-3 viable major builds (depending on what they're doing) 3 healer types with again, 2-3 major builds, and 3 dps where you'll likely have at least 3 major builds. And then you ask, "Well, if one build is the best on a boss, why wouldn't everyone just play that one?" The answer is, gear distribution. It takes a long time to get an optimal set for a build.
Honestly, you'll find a class you like, and can tweak it to make it fit your likes even more. So, you start with the basic idea of big, slow hitting melee that shrugs off damage (for the most part), an agile melee, a controlling type of caster, and an agile caster. The LAS system lets you tailor them to fit your specific playstyle. But I'm guessing you like the monk type or melee caster type. I think stalker will play that way to a large extent, just not actually using magic.
But you have to divide classes into builds which includes the LAS system, it's all part of the conversation. You can't simply say "I'm a warrior tank," you have to include more information. Some tanks will be control oriented, where they use lots of CC's and such, others will be meat shields, others will be evasion based, others will control the environment. This is because even a warrior can go utility with the arm cannon/saw thing, or they can use their giant sword, or their heavy armor. I'm saying because of the LAS system, you can't simply pigeonhole each class, because each class has a wide array of things they can do.
Yeah, but here's the deal, with WoW you have one option which Blizzard gave you, as to the "best" way to play a certain class/spec. With Wildstar you're constantly going to be tweaking to find that perfect way to play. Like I said, you can tweak your stalker to play like a ninja, a samurai, a wing chun master, a kung foo champion, a seal team member, an artillery cannon, and I'm sure a number of other things. So, when you describe "Stalker" it's a melee-ish fighter that usually opts for agility, stealth, and trickery, but has the ability to evade, probably poison, explode things, ambush, etc. The issue is the classes in WS are much more dynamic and don't really need "themes" placed on them by Carbine. This is because it's up to the play to figure out how to play their class the way they enjoy the most.
I agree, there won't be any all-encompassing "themes" because the classes in WS are much more complex, and they haven't been given a static set of abilities, which you're expected to use all of them. It's going to depend on your gear as a player, and the player's personal playstyle to figure out what build works best for them. There will be "theoretical" best builds, but they'll assume ideal gear, which can never be attained. So, players will have to rely on gear distribution for part of their decisions, as well as their role that they are expected to do. This along with how they enjoy playing that role.
Again, I think the main issue is you see "Stalker" and imagine "Rogue" instead of "Rogue + Hunter + Warrior + a little bit of Mage." And you see "Warrior" instead of "Warrior + Death Knight + Monk + Paladin." Esper would be Warlock + Priest + Frost Mage + Druid + possibly ele/resto shaman + a bit of HPally. Spellslinger would be Mage + Hunter + Shaman + maybe Druid.
I don't think any of the classes has been "stereotypical," while they all have the ability to be very similar to something we've seen elsewhere, they all seem to have (from the CBT patch notes) abilities which play contrary to their stereotype as well.
It could but I'm talking more about the class' overall style, not necessarily how many stuns/snares/HoTs/AoEs/damage absorbs a class has in its arsenal. I don't have a problem with skill homogenization per se but instead the themes that're represented among the available classes. Right now we got a front-liner, a psychic, a spell-imbibing gunslinger, and an assassin along with the unknown two. Really we won't know for sure if the final six will be a sufficient cast to launch the game with and it's very likely that you and I in the end could very well disagree on the diversity of the launch class cast. I had a hard time picking a class in EQ2 despite it having so many because it never touched the niche and style I wanted to play as. EQ and WoW came the closest with the beastlord and the enhancement shaman, but I don't see any class resembling them except maybe the esper. Time will tell, but I'm just not that optimistic that the final cast will sufficiently satisfy me.
Here's the kicker: I've hated rogue archetype classes more than any other class I've experienced and not just by playing against them. I have little confidence that it'll change in WS but I hope I'm wrong.
The gaps that could be filled are probably subjective and for me, I'd have to see what the final two classes are before I could determine if another or two would better complement and properly round off the launch cast of classes. I like a lot of choice in what I can play as. It's not really about what roles can I fill in a raid. I'm confident they can be covered. I could raid in WoW as a fury warrior, a frost DK, or enhancement shaman, all of which are very similar in that they're all fast-paced, hard-hitting, dual-wielding melee combatants, but I chose the shaman decisively because I loved the elemental warrior theme that came with it. The other two don't have much of that at all. It's little distinctions like that that have little impact on actual gameplay that have a huge impact on me. It's about the flavor of the game for me, and I feel the current cast lacks that flavor.
I'm concerned about the current number of classes not because of the mechanics but the assortment of aesthetics and themes that the classes bring to the table. Right now it just feels lacking to me, but depending on how awesome the final two classes are could change my mind.
If this happens to be the case, that would be great, but I haven't seen much evidence for it on my part. However, there's a lot Carbine hasn't shown us I'm sure. We don't even know what most class skills are right now and I hear that there are big changes coming to the classes soon. All I can base my opinions on are the little tidbits Carbine has revealed thus far which isn't much.
Sory for the late reply, but indeed we are talking about completly different things (why did you quote me in the first place anyway?)
I was more talking about the diversity of the classes.
Anyway, it's late her so goodbye, and have fun in that other thread about that ''hardcore'' thingie
LOL I might leave it if the average IQ of that thread takes a further dive. Time will tell. XD
Don't you go cracking down my own replies in that thread! Don't you dare *pointing finger*
Anyway the IQ is low anyway...we both posted in that thread
LOL I read 'em and I don't have a problem with them aside from them being the brainchild of Dominion scum.