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Pre-defined class raid roles

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by FairyTailisBack, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I remember back in vanilla WoW the mottos went,
    If you cast heals, then you are a healer.
    If you are a warrior, then you should always have a shield in your bag.

    1 Tank . 3 Heals . 4 Dps
    Warrior . Druid . Mage . Rogue
    -------- . Priest . Warlock
    -------- . Sham/Pal . Hunter



    40 man raids makeup
    4 Tanks
    10 heals
    26 dps

    Note: I know there were exceptions here, but these were the general rules.


    Assuming equal representation,
    40 raid spots / 8 classes = 5 raid spot / class

    This equates to,
    5 Warriors = Tanks
    15 potential healers

    This instantly pigeonholed all warriors to be prepared to tank.
    15 healers is way too many, but people tended to shy away from the healing classes in favor of pure DPS classes, which brought the numbers back down in line with about 10. Thus ensuring anyone with a heal was forced to cast it during raids.

    When tBC launched I thought it was over, but in many ways it got worse. I as a shaman received a ton of flak from the new players for rolling enhancement. Though I was previously the healing officer/coordinator, so I could maybe understand some of that, but not nearly to the degree I received.



    Wildstar has 6 classes, 3 of which can heal, 3 can tank, and all 6 can DPS.

    3 Tank . 3 Heals . 6 Dps
    Warrior . Esper . Warrior . Esper
    Stalker . Spells . Stalker . Spellslinger
    Engineer . Medic . Engineer . Medic


    Assuming a similar raid makeup,
    4 Tanks
    10 Heals
    26 DPS

    Assuming equal representation,
    40 raid spots / 6 classes = 6.66 raid spot / class

    6 Warrior
    7 stalker
    7 Engineer
    6 esper
    7 spellslinger
    7 medic


    This equates to,
    20 potential tanks
    20 potential healers

    4 tank positions, leaves 16 potential tanks to become DPS.
    10 healing positions, leaving 10 potential healers to become DPS.


    To recap,
    1/1 of potential tanks were required to tank in vanilla WoW.
    In Wildstar, 1/5 of the potential tanks will be required to tank.

    2/3 of potential healers were required to heal in vanilla WoW.
    In Wildstar, 1/2 of the potential healers will be required to heal.


    For tanks, this is a huge leap in progress from vanilla WoW. They went from being immensely pigeonholed, into complete freedom. However, for Healers the progress is only slightly more favorable.

    You see the thing about pigeonholing is that it is a snowball effect. If people feel they are being pigeonholed into a role they might not like, then they simply won't play that class. Less people playing a class, then further ensures that the remaining players that are playing the healing capaable classes will be forced to heal. Which in turn makes the stereotype stronger, and on and on it goes.

    Therefore, there exists a real possibility that Espers/Spellslingers/Medics could still very well see ourselves pigeonholed into the heal role during raids. It won't happen to everyone, but it will certainly happen to some.
  2. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I always click your topics wondering just what I am going to read. But this one confuses me beyond belief.

    There are 3 classes capable of healing. Someone has to do it if you want a successful raid.

    If the 3 classes mentioned in the quote above are pigeonholed into healing just because they can heal, by that definition would the other 3 classes, which are capable of tanking, not be pigeonholed into tanking? Now we have a 40-man raid full of nothing but healers and tanks. Zero damage-dealers.

    I just don't understand.
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  3. Mondasin

    Mondasin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I actually see most dps spec'd people running at least 1 support role ability, to help heal those that have taken damage, or pull adds off healers and towards the tanks. Then again I assume people aren't self-centered asshats if they are willing to join a large group effort.
  4. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    Just find people that actually want to heal, instead of finding DPS and force them to heal.
  5. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why would they do that when you have healers to do that? As a healer I'd like to have a job to do and be needed in the raid, I don't need dps ignoring their role to try to be "helpful" - I want to have my fun just like the dps do theirs. Spec for dps and do the best job you can in that raid because that's what we really need you to be doing, and leave the healing up to the healers. Besides, you won't really want to have a healing skill in your very limited number of skillslots. I don't even know what this topic is for. Just find people to tank/heal and play what you enjoy.
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  6. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    He meant that - looking at Vanilla WoW - some classes just might be TOO good in a role/TOO bad in a role to fulfill that role.

    Which in return would force that class to always follow that role.

    Example? Think about the Warrior in W* being a heavy DPS monster and the Stalker being a way better tank overall - everyone would search for Stalker tanks and Warrior tanks would be frowned upon.

    While I hope this won't happen, If Carbine isn't careful this WILL happen. You can really screw up balance by easy stats or passive abilities.

    All in all - I know your worries but to be honest: Carbine are smart peepz - they'll get this done right and give everyone their specialization in DPS/Tank/Heal while still being useful in that specc.
  7. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Most of this is player driver. I was a Prot Pally in vanilla WoW. I had my own party of 5 people that did dungeons on the way up to 60 and I tanked all the way. No one ever complained that it wasn't working, because it did.

    Could a Warrior have tanked better? Maybe, but none of them told me I couldn't and I wouldn't have listened if they did. Play what is fun for you and ignore people who say otherwise.
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  8. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I don't think we'll have much of a problem with this.

    There will be a few incidences of this but it also depends on what the real class distribution will be in individual raids and on average across the board. Some classes will be more popular than others for a variety of reasons as will specific role functionality with each class. We could see up to a quarter of a raid being a single class viably even though they will be performing different roles within their class.

    The only shortage in roles I could see existing is one in healers, especially good ones. Healing in WS will probably be very foreign to a lot of people and just not familiar enough to some to be willing to adopt it. Let's hope Carbine can create a compelling healing game.
  9. CaRaDaGaiTa

    CaRaDaGaiTa Cupcake-About-Town

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    As we discussed in other topics, maybe people will try to force Medics to heal early in the game, because of the class name, but me, for example, will just tell them to suck a canebrake of dicks and roll dps :)

    Don't worry man, that will not happen in Wildstar!
  10. atom

    atom Cupcake-About-Town

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    W* is not some perfect utopia. It's a game populated by real people, the same real people you played with in WoW and other games. People will be told to heal when they don't want to. People will be told to tank when they don't want to. You can either live with it or go hang out with different people.
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  11. Destrin

    Destrin Cupcake

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    Personally I do not see this being an issue. If someone can aim and hit a moving target as DPS, then they should be able to aim and hit a moving target as a healer. I think that the increased amount of fun with actually having to move, aim, and land your heals will actually increase the number of people willing to heal. If more people are willing to heal because it is more fun than in other games we will most likely see a higher number of skilled healers than we usually do in MMOs. Just my opinion :D
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  12. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Except that the risks of missing a heal vs. an attack will generally be greater. Frustration could easily set in under these circumstances. That's why it's important for Carbine to make the telegraphs the right size and the right amount of effectiveness so that healing well is doable with a little effort.

    Whether or not always being on the move to heal will be fun is subjective. Many people might begrudge the necessity of moving in order to heal and groan about the added workload that's thrust upon them in order to be a competent healer. Some people don't like to work hard. Maybe they shouldn't heal then, but as to how mobile, telegraphed healing will be received by the healing masses remains to be seen. I'd be cautious about making certain judgments too quickly on a largely unknown and unexperienced design feature.

    I don't think we'll necessarily see better healers either. I can't imagine how people who struggle to dodge telegraphed attacks in WoW's modern normal-mode or LFR raids will be able to move effectively to heal other players, much less be able to land their telegraphs at all.

    If we get better players at all, it'll be because the fast-paced, hard-hitting telegraphs early in the game (presumably) will force players to endure virtual natural selection imposed on them. Ideally, those who are suitable for survival will be the players in our endgame groups instead of combustion-prone scrubs like in WoW.
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  13. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    So basically, he hopes that Wildstar will have good class balance?

    Well, yeah, im pretty sure the majority agrees.
    Destrin and Xlugon Pyro like this.
  14. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think there are some important points in here. My raiding experience has seen a fair number of healers that are used to not moving. These players really like the fact that they usually stand in one spot and hit 1-3 buttons. When things get hairy and they have to become mobile, stopping just long enough to cast a heal and then move again, they start to break down.

    Again, just my experience.
  15. Destrin

    Destrin Cupcake

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    Very solid point. I am sure we can both agree on that healing in WS will/should be harder than we see in most MMOs. If not than we will just get the same boring spam heals and not run out of mana that we see far too often across the genre.

    Moving should not be the issue here. If it is, then the person in question should not be raiding in WildStar. I am cautious about having too much hope for MMOs and their mechanics these days, but after playing MMOs for so many years these healing mechanics really speak to me as fun.

    I am not saying we will see better healers. I am saying we might have "more" people willing to heal. We might see people who had no interest in healing before wanting to try it because of these "new" and interesting mechanics. I know it has me thinking about maybe trying to fill a main healer role. If more people are willing to try it they might like it, some of them are bound to be good.

    My point was more along the lines of seeing a greater number of healers or people willing to heal. With my experience people do not want to heal because mainly you are stuck to one spot and/or staring at your raid/group window managing health bars (This is why I prefer DPS over healing usually). I hope that this issue should be somewhat alleviated with players actually having to watch the encounter.

    I quit WoW just before BC launch to play EQ2 with my brother and his guildies. Never really did a lot of raiding on WoW, but sure did a bunch in EQ2. I can agree with you though. It makes no sense to me why people will die to the same god damn attack from the same god damn boss every time. Never fails.


    Agreed.

    Overall we have to wait and see how Carbine deals with this. Hopefully with the amount of testing they are planning they will get some good solid feedback, then make the changes they need to the three healing classes so they are fun above all else.
  16. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There's no denying that WildStar's combat mechanics will be different from what many are used to, intentionally so. I do think healing looks to be more interesting in WildStar, but I also see it being harder. If just the fact that healers are required to move and move often on top of making sure they land moves right, there's the potential for healing to become less popular for people who decide to experiment with it. It may not be a problem in the long run because everyone would have to become accustomed to mobility and landing telegraphs right regardless of role. We'll have to see how the healer population shifts if at all, but mobile combat will be key in WildStar, including healers.

    People will definitely experiment with it, but how people will respond to the mechanics are a mystery. They might be popular, or not. I'm not generally compelled to heal in any game and WildStar is no exception, so I can't say that I know how the healer mind thinks. I do think the new mechanics makes healing look interesting, but will the more interactive playstyle of healers in WildStar overcome the complications that come with the necessity to be accurate and timely with healing telegraphs or wipe the raid? Time will ultimately tell which is I stated that being a decent healer in WildStar should be easily obtainable so long as some environmental awareness is necessary.

    On an off note, I get the feeling healers in WildStar will be restricted in positioning since they'll only be able to heal those near them as opposed to anyone they can target so long as they aren't LoSing. Individual healer skill will become more important since better geared/skilled healers won't be able to pick up the slack of another healer as well.

    Maybe we should start a new thread on healing mechanics and raid assignments.
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  17. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Uh...Yup, pretty much sums it up.
  18. Drengarblar

    Drengarblar New Cupcake

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    Problem solved...

    I have a feeling there are a lot more people out there who actually prefer healing or tanking than DPS...I am one of these people :)
  19. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Pigeonholed into doing something means you have to do in order for the raid to even take place.

    To recap,
    1/1 of potential tanks were required to tank in vanilla WoW.
    In Wildstar, 1/5 of the potential tanks will be required to tank.

    2/3 of potential healers were required to heal in vanilla WoW.
    In Wildstar, 1/2 of the potential healers will be required to heal


    In other words, 1/5 of the people who can tank need to tank, but 1/2 of the people who cast heals will need to heal. That leaves a possibility that many people playing espers/spellslingers/medics will be required to heal for raiding purposes, regardless if they would prefer a dps main spec.

    Some will likely be forced to main spec heals, when they actually want to play as DPS. This will absolutely happen just based on the huge number of players and statistical chance. However, we also know that DPS is a more popular in general than healing, so if we extrapolate that to just healing classes then you can see how this issue might be quite prevalent.


    Long story short, if you are raider playing a class that can heal, then you better be working on your healing set.
  20. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I actually meant that it would happen by statistical chance regardless. But this is also a great point. If the healing capable classes can't cut the mustard in DPS, like in Vanilla WoW, then you won't be DPS. You will either have to find a very casual guild, become a healer, or not raid.

    That is anecdotal evidence.
    Play what you want, when you want doesn't work in progression raiding. Besides, some nights you need x number of healers, and if you don't have one, then some DPS is going to be switching to heals.

    It wasn't a matter of could the warrior tank better in vanilla, but that he absolutely would have tanked better given equal skill. Sorry, that is just a fact. Also, 5 mans aren't raiding either.

    I have never even heard of a pally tanking a raid in vanilla. I heard of druids tanking later as gear progressed to the point they were capable of doing so, but even that supposedly only worked well for a few fights.

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