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Pre-defined class raid roles

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by FairyTailisBack, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    What happens if the tanking-capable classes can't "cut the mustard" in DPS? Then they won't be DPS. Everyone's out of luck then, I guess.

    As for the breakdown of roles by number in your original post, you're basing that off a different game. At this point you can't claim that will be the exact breakdown for Wildstar. You're assuming way too much before you have even had a chance to see a Wildstar raid.

    All of your assumptions are irrelevant at this point. For all we know Carbine is setting up their raids to perfectly mesh eight 5-man groups into a 40-man raid.

    8 tanks
    8 healers
    24 dps
  2. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    As you said yourself, if tank capable characters can't cut the mustard then they have the same options. That would be pretty broken though, as there are only a few tank spots, thus leaving a huge number are required to DPS in raids.

    Yes, I said this was an assumption based on the general numbers in WoW. I highly predict they remain about the same though, just out of preferences for the roles. It is a far better guesstimate than just making up numbers.


    I am merely stating that the possibility of being pigeonholed into another role, at least part time, is a very high possibility.

    Personally, I don't mind this as I enjoy doing all roles. In fact, I prefer doing all roles over only one.


    It is sort of like current day WoW. Some 10 man fights are better with 2 heals, and some with 3. That means you need a few people ready to switch at any time. Now extrapolate that 40 mans, and consider an expanded roster to compensate absentees. There is going to be a lot of people needing to step up to fill in healing roles.
  3. Destrin

    Destrin Cupcake

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    Maybe... We can just chalk this one up to being tangent to the number of healers available to fill the role. So we don't have to. ;)

    Lets bring it back then. If the hypothetical ideal group make up is 20 potential tanks and 20 potential healers in a 40 man raid then this is perfect. There is going to be an available person to fill a role if needed.

    It will all come down to your guild recruitment. If your leadership knows the fights, and knows exactly what group composition he/she wants for his/her 40 man group (and can fill that group), than this will not be a problem. I assume you will need people to switch roles if you want to have the "optimal" group set up from fight to fight. Especially when you are working on progression, and there are no guides or videos posted all over the internet. Unless maybe, all the encounters are the same?

    We do not know what the number of tanks required per fight, nor do we know the numbers of healers. We can only guess. All I can say is: I would be more willing to take someone who could fill both roles they have available to my raid, over someone who says they will only play one role. Versatility is not a bad thing. If your guild is forcing you to do a role you are unwilling to do, or do not like. Tell your leadership, if you are the leadership do some recruiting.
  4. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is easier said, than done. You are going to bench players you played with for months for new recruits, simply because they like dual roles? What about all the progress you made, and the gear your guild has worked to get into gearing the other player? Just toss that aside?

    In the real world it doesn't work like that.
    Sacrifices often have to be made.
  5. Destrin

    Destrin Cupcake

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    If it was a mediocre dps versus a mediocre dps/tank/healer and the position was needed, then yes I would make the switch. If they do not want to be a team player, bench them. If however, its' your top DPS you are asking to make the switch because none of the other 20 or so dps do not want to, then your team has bigger issues. Some people are going to be asked to switch roles. It is in your best interest to be able to function reasonably well at both roles you have available to you.

    The real world does work like that. If you are not meshing with your team or under performing they will find a more valuable replacement. Whether it be employment or other team atmospheres, cuts and changes often have to be made.

    I will agree with you with one thing though. Sacrifices have to be made from time to time, even if a team is well managed. At least its not something terrible you are being asked to do. If there are plenty of people available for recruitment, and management is good, then the sacrifices will be minimal. If the game flops and not a whole lot of people play then there will be an issue IMO.

    We have to wait and see.
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  6. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    Doubtful. Any semi-competent guild recruits the player above the class, and they also dont rely on FOTM waves to clear content. If they do, they will hit a brick wall every time a nerf/fix comes for that particular class.
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  7. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    My main character will definitely be an Esper. Yet I still plan to collect and carry both a DPS and Support set of equipment, trying to keep them as equal as I can to balance myself for either DPS or healing. Though, likely, I'll start out with healing. Something tells me that there will be plenty of people interested in dealing damage than supporting others.

    A person should be prepared to fill the needs of a group. Especially as they get into higher levels and those raids. It makes people flexible, but also makes sure that the team can still function is someone has to leave or accidently disconnects. Not everyone will do it. Likely, people will focus on one roll, maxing that out as much as they can. Then maybe looking at the other half of their character when they become bored with one role.

    It would seem to me that eventually, at high level, being able to perform equally well in two roles would be an advantage. If only to give people the chance to try another role as they become bored of it. Constantly running Stormtalon (for an example) as a tank and shouldering the responsibility might get old. It might be nice for that person if they could just concern themselves with inflicting damage instead. If only for one run.

    The question does come up of experience. Not level experience, but as time spent playing their role. Since we can change our role between fights we can march into a dungeon and let the tank or healer with lesser experience tackle the first couple of bosses. Since those are usually easier. Then they can switch over to DPS and the main healer and tank can take the later bosses. If the group starts wiping a lot on the early bosses the experienced ones can still take over. They got some practice, but the group doesn't have to reform with new character to finish the dungeon.
  8. Fluffyness

    Fluffyness New Cupcake

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    You make a very good point. In most cases you aren't going to have a 1:1 ratio of tanks and healers. So the healer flexibility is great.

    The only point I disagree with is the tank pigeonholing, because so few tanks are required vs other roles. The only reason so many people kept tank gear in my opinion (it's why I did it) was to get faster ques leveling or fill in if someone was a no-show. Once you were in a steady guild the tanks were pretty concrete because they knew the other 30-some people NEEDED them to show.

    Ignoring all of the: x class is better at y so should abandon it's other spec for the benefit of the raid. Which depending on how min/max focused your group is WILL happen.
    Also, assuming that Wildstar tanking is simlar to traditional mmo tanking with a main, off and maybe situational off tanks. I really like the design philosophy of each class having 2 roles, team and self. I also think we're assuming too much because of the nature of the LAS (limited action set) which may require multiple players to coordinate to fill the toolkit of what we consider one "wow class" considering classes had 20-40 abilities at any given time vs. 8.

    tl;dr Again you make a very good point but until I get some beta playtime I feel like you're on to something but it's all speculation as far as 20/40 mans. I think you nailed 5s though.
  9. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nothing you said made any sense....
  10. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    The point was that the devs will be aiming for balance. Sure, it might not be balanced at all times, but if you decide to not have any Stalker DPS in your roster when they are below the rest, what happens when the FOTM-wave swings and Stalkers becomes top DPS?
  11. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Idk, I personally have never heard of anyone recruiting based on FotM.

    They will be working on balance, that is true, but it is always tricky to balance PvE & PvP. There is almost always a best dps spec at any given time.

    You can even argue some imbalance is a good thing, as lots of people will actually reroll FotM, which keeps them in the game. I am 99.99% positive blizzard does this intentionally.
  12. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    I have seen guilds trying to ride the FOTM as much as possible, and also denying good players because their class was currently undertuned. Needless to say, guilds like that dont survive in the long run.

    Agreed, IMO skills should be balanced separately for PvP/PvE. That way, changes that aims for one playstyle does not have to affect the other. Extra work, sure, but i believe it would be worth it.

    I dont mind if the game does not achieve complete balance, as long as i feel my personal skills are a bigger factor then the class im currently playing. The end result should depend more on me then what i choose during character creation.
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  13. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have only rerolled once, and that was on an elemental shaman during Dragonsoul. Aside from the last 2 fights, we were <REDACTED> tier. I made a rogue from scratch, and in way less gear I was doing over 5k more dps.

    Yah, complete balance is certainly almost impossible. Wildstar is off to a great start as far as that is concerned from my perspective though. The fact they have different stats for different roles is great. No so called hybrid tax is also a huge plus.
  14. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    On the flip side - with half of the classes being able to tank or heal then it's easier to rotate the roles if people feel forced into playing them if that's the scenario that a guild finds itself in.

    An alliance guild on our server used a paladin tank through MC/BWL/AQ - not sure exactly how they utilised them but they had one raiding.
    Another horde guild used a fury spec warrior for tanking which worked well for them.
    Just because it might not work for you doesn't mean it isn't possible/doesn't work for others.
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  15. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I will try to give you my view on this. It may come off a bit harsh and I do not mean to offend anyone that has a different opinion, this is simply how I feel about this topic.

    Raiding/dungeons is a team *sport*. For a group to be successful you will need someone to take the hits and someone to heal them back up. Both of those tasks require significantly more concentration than just being dps(one of the reasons people prefer dps). And well let's face it, its a lot more fun to see all those numbers flying around your screen and stomping people on dps meters. Epeen increases by over 9000 anyone?
    Anyway, back to the point; pve progress depends on group effort, and whether you like or not, you might need to heal or tank every once in a while to make sure your guild gets through content. But so what? You're still raiding with all of your friends, you're still having fun, you're still getting all those shiny drops and achievements, you just aren't in the role you want to be in. But still isn't that better than being rotated out and sitting on the sidelines just because one more healer was needed and you really don't want to heal?

    Bottom line is, pigeonholing will happen, but if -you-(read: person that refuses to swap role) are not willing to make a small sacrifice to improve the experience of 39 other people you play with every day then you should not be in a raiding guild.
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  16. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Fury spec warriors didn't tank, they offtanked. The little time they needed to be tanking was outweighed by their dps contribution, especially later in the game.

    Noway in hell a pally tanked in vanilla and wasn't hardcore carried. I am not even sure how it would have been possible...
  17. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well if you call tanking the majority of MC bosses 'offtanking' that's your lookout. I call it main tanking when the tank is on the single boss in the encounter :p. They did it because of the superior threat generation apparently - wasn't my guild but like I said it worked well for them.
    Couldn't tell you how it went past MC (although they were still using the guy) as the warriors in our server PvP group had moved onto discussing other things (I was pewpewing on my warlock + rogue between raiding).

    You'll note I don't claim these were optimal setups, simply that guilds used them as it worked for them. As to the pally not being good at tanking - if they used him from MC through AQ then he must have been good enough for them so /shrug.

    Edit: Quick google yielded some vanilla pally tanking footage for you:


    (Private server but running 1.12.1 patch)

    and (5 mins+ for the raid content although only looks to be trash mobs).

  18. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    You mean after the heals and everyone outgeared it by a mile?
    Sure, damn shadowpriest could tank.
  19. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    This won't happen in guilds with a decent structure. This will happen in so-so guilds led by a wannabe pro group. Wannabe pro's, you know the type over demanding requirements due to being clueless how much is actually required and following the fotm without any clue of the whole theory crafting behind it yet the first to raise their voice in telling you how you should be gearing and playing.

    The difference in performance between balanced classes is often so small that the the performance gap is just outside the error margin. But people overvalue it, considering very few people play to that perfection, i raided with people in WoW who picked didn't pick the fotm spec in the class but yet outdpsed 80% of the raid and was in the top 5 of WoL's, a good player will play good if the class meets their playstyle, put a good player in a role that doesn't fit their playstyle and they won't be bad but won't reach the same levels they wouldn't playing what feels more natural.

    That being said, In wildstar your DPS, Tanks and Healers aren't separated by such hard lines as in WoW.
    My Engineer (it's out so deal with it) can have a combination of tank and dps abilities tailored for just a specific set up. What brings a more unique setup of just "how many healers, tanks and dps do i need" or at least the possibility for you as raid to adjust, putting in more tanks, healers and dps abilities to tackle, the classic elements as adds, enrage timers and aoe damage constants or spikes. therefor bringing in more hybrid setups.

    I fully expect pugs to pigeonhole classes, i don't expect good guilds to do that. Good in terms of performance and results.


    Vanilla WoW is also not a good example as a lot of classes were far from balanced or even done and some specs were just there to offer a different playstyle, they were far from tailored to be "viable in all aspects of the game" as things are created now.

    Not only WoW all mmo's of that time had that, it came much later that people started looking at optimizing everything.

    (yes i am saying that classic wow was very simplistic in terms of encounters and classes like every other mmo out there, probably one of the biggest misnomers out there, although an opinion shaped by people new to the genre)
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  20. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    They were using them (the fury/pally tanks) during current content.
    The videos simply illustrated that it can be done as you had said you had never heard of it so thought I'd be helpful at the expense of 5 minutes of googling :p. There was a vid of Patchwerk 40 man being tanked by a prot pally but I couldn't find that in a quick search - feel free to dig deeper if you're still having trouble with the concept.

    Post #7 in this thread has some better insight than me (as I mentioned I was horde) into how it worked for them.

    It happened, I pointed it out. Not sure why you're having trouble grasping that but all we're doing now is derailing the thread :D

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