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Pre-defined class raid roles

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by FairyTailisBack, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Those 2 boss fights are the ones where DPS on the boss is light. It is probably the only fights he could hold aggro on, unless everyone held back. People did stuff like that as a gimmick sometimes, it doesn't mean <REDACTED>. It was horribly suboptimal, but doing it once of twice might be fun.

    You can probably find old videos of Shadow priests, and moonkin tankig Onyxia too. But, like I said they did as a gimmick. It in no way implies they were decent tanks in vanilla.
  2. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    You clearly missed the part where I said I was not stating that they were optimal setups. You stated you had not heard of paladin tanks being used in vanilla, I mentioned that a guild on my server used one from MC through AQ.
    I also mentioned the fury warrior being used as MT for a guild as another example of a non-standard tank to further illustrate that setups outside the optimal/norm can and do work for people while the content is current.

    You keep adding caveats to the replies for some reason, it still doesn't undo the fact that they were used by guilds while they were progression raiding (not at cutting edge level but then you never specified that as a requirement for examples). Not sure how else I can put that this wasn't a 'gimmick' for those guilds. I attempted to enlighten you as to their use - you seem to have a problem dealing with that information /shrug. Not much else I can say lol.
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  3. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    People often confuse "optimal" as being "fun". They usually are not the same. In my experience, optimal play is work. The examples you have given look like fun.

    I often choose fun. I still get things done.
  4. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    My first toon in WoW was a pally. I tanked on a him in dungeons during vanilla but when I got serious about wanting to tank in raids I rolled a war. From the tanking I had done I felt a stronger connection to the role then a particular class. Generally speaking, I prefer to play an optimal class/spec but also understand and appreciate that not everyone is into extensive theorycrafting. So long as a class/spec is viable I'm fine with people bringing it to a raid.
  5. Pinga

    Pinga New Cupcake

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    I think the OP brings a fair point, with some interesting numbers. Playing the class and spec you want is not always as simple as "I like this one".
    And it's not only about being a tank/healer/dps. In WoW (since this is the example everyone is using) you don't want too many melees. Heck, until Burning Crusade (BC) you wanted as much rangeds as possible (which is still true, to some extent). Also, crowd control was very important in BC. I remember once I didn't invite a DPS Warrior to a dungeon, simply because it didn't bring CC.
    Nowadays most raiding in WoW is done by small groups of 10 man. Still, you need to bring a ton of buffs/debuffs/utility. Composition matters, a lot. If you stack people of the same class, for instance, not only you will lose those buffs, but you will also waste loot. You want some diversity, and that means someone might have to play what the group needs.

    In Wildstar, on the other hand, raids will be a lot bigger. Which is good, because that will leave a lot more room for people to choose. Even if they design fights where class X is mandatory because it brings an unique trait, it won't be a problem, because it will be hard to not have at least one member of each six classes in a 40 man. Also, in 40 man there will be plenty of backpacks to carry :). So if you are really good at what you do, chances are they won't make you sit during progression.

    Now, about the Healer x DPS, the reason I always play as DPS is because I feel I can make a difference. We have damage metters. They matter. You see, your performance is evaluated by everyone, all time. People will compliment you for doing good numbers. When I play a healer, on the other hand, I don't feel as much competitive. Metters don't matter. It's always like "do a good job and that's ok". Which is not true, since a good healer can make a HUGE difference. Still, as a competitive player, DPS seems to be the way to go.

    Also: Tanks get a lot of responsability. DPSers will often have to kite, interrupt, and so on. Often you don't even need to bother explaining the fight to the healer. "Stay on the corner and, um, heal. Try not to die." Healers need more engagement in fights.
  6. Elloa

    Elloa Cupcake

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    This is pretty fun, because I feel exactly as the other way. When I play DPS I've the feeling to only be a insignificant drop in the ocean. While as healer I've the feeling to be among the stars :) The super star being the main tank.

    It's a long time I prefer healing in PVE (I hate heal in PVP though). I feel very comfortable with healing and very uncomfortable with DPS. Burst and get out all damage possible seems exhausting for me, requiering to much focus on a sequence (I hate rotations).
    I enjoy healing more because I've the feeling it's more flexible, more varied. I'll have to react to the situation, and I love to keep my team mates alive. It feel very rewarding.

    The only thing painful with healers is the leveling. In WOW I refused to level as DPS, because I wanted to train my class and skills as I was leveling. So killing stuff in WOW as Discipline/Holy was kinda painful you may guess. The Dualspec didn't changed much of my problem as I heavily disliked shadow and prefered to have two different healing spec for different situation.
    In Tera online, I encountered same problem, Mystic was with Lancer the most boring class to level alone. A real nightmare

    I'm hopefull that Wildstar will solve this issue by offering the possibility to build spec and gear that make healers viable DPS for questing.
  7. Pinga

    Pinga New Cupcake

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    Very true. Also, when you get gear upgrades as a DPS, you improve your gameplay at all times. You will raid better, quest better, even PvP better.
    I think healers should be able to do damage. Real damage. Not top the charts, of course, but something like 75% of a DPS damage would be fine. I hope the Wildstar LAS allow for something like this. You still want to fill your bar with healing skills for a raid, but when solo, you can put damage there. Same for tanks.
  8. Kryptikk

    Kryptikk New Cupcake

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    How often do top WoW guilds class stack??? Druids for 1st heroic Nef in Cata, arcane mages for 1st heroic spine in cata. This is by every definition FOTM play.

    However the OP does have a good point. In Vanilla Druids, Priests, Paladins all were healers. Warriors tanked its just the way it was. Do i think this might happen in W* yes. It would be foolish not to think it in some capacity IMO. Hybrid classes in most cases will always excel slightly in one way or another. Through time maybe they will balance out but in some cases Gear is the deciding factor on that. The idea that playing what you want to play and how you want to play it will be a good approach will work for some but not in the case of HardCore Raid guilds. You make changes to be the best your worry is not about others and feelings its about progression at a high rate. This is harsh but the truth
  9. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    That has nothing to do with Fotm recruitment, because those members already exists or alternates.

    Again, I have never heard of a guild that recruits based on which spec is mathematically superior for that tier.

    Yup, some people are going to have to heal whether they want to or not. It won't just be the hardcore guilds either. There will be so many guilds that it is statistical fact that some players will be forced to heal, especially on smaller realms.
  10. PawRevere

    PawRevere New Cupcake

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    We have ZERO idea about fight requirements I'm elder game. Once we know that, it'll be up to guild masters and raid leads to figure this <REDACTED> out. And they will.

    May that pigeon hole some people into roles they may not want to fulfill, maybe. But why join a raiding guild and not understand the fact that you may have to break out of your shell every now and then.
  11. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only class I see having a problem is Medic, and not because of the name, but rather if they are healer/melee dps they will be pushed to healer, as melee dps is usually the easiest role to fill in a raid. The other healer capabale classes are ranged dps, and the only other potential ranged dps is engineer.
  12. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    I sort of expected that the medic could be assigned to move with and sustain the melee dps group.
  13. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    The whole premise is extremely skewed. Vanilla WoW is a terrible example as it had aweful class balance for the purposes of raid roles. Two of the classes that were technically meant to be able to Tank were poorly supported in that role and none of the classes that could heal were able to be competative in DPS. The worst part and something many folks seem to overlook was all you had to do was look at the stats of the class tier sets back then to realize that at the time it was working as intended. Eventually they realized that if your going to have hybrid classes they have to be able to peform all the roles they are capable of at a reasonably comparable level. Thankfully it's not 2004 anymore and over the last decade developers have been able to learn from mistakes of the past.
  14. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Vanilla WoW wasn't a premise, just a basis of comparison.
    Look at the shaman sets, minus tier 3, and tell me that was 'working as intended'. It had strength, agility, spirit, etc.. All basically worthless!

    Idk it might be too early to tell whether ranged or melee dps is superior.
  15. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah I wasn't talking about the 5 man dungeon junk that seemed to have a little bit of everything ...Every vanilla shaman raid tier set was purely healing oriented as were those for evry class that could heal and warriors sets were just for tanking. What I meant by working as intended was it was a clear and obvious sign that at the time blizzard didn't take their own hybrid classes seriously outside of what they saw as their default role for end game PvE.

    That far too many of the player populace carried this horrible attitude onwards even after the issues were resolved was in large part the result of bad habits the fault of which could firmly be placed at the feet of the original dev team for doing such a half baked job on hybrid class design.

    Honestly in my experience with wow the absolute worst offenders of the pigeonholing you speak of were people playing pure DPS classes. Even with a lower demand for tanks than healers the simple fact that every class can perform a non-dps role will mitigate the attitudes you speak of. Remember that while leveling up the number of healers required per 5 man dungeon will be the same as the number of tanks. This should result in a fairly healthy attitude at elder game because while those tank/dps hybrids wont be in as much demand for the non-dps role they will have leveled up with an equal demand.
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  16. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well this is assuming everything is reasonably balanced, as this whole discussion is moot if there are large discrepancies between the specs. You will want a minimum number of ranged to allow your raid flexibility to deal with fight mechanics that either require or encourage X number of people out of melee or to spread out.
  17. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    You have to be looking at the current tier 1 stats, which apparently got changed post vanilla.

    There used to be worthless stats on shaman gear that had nothing to do with healing.
    http://www.wowhead.com/transmog-set=643

    Hell, shaman didn't even benefit from spirit outside the 5 second rule.
    We had no spirit passive regen talent!
  18. Kilo

    Kilo New Cupcake

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    From what I have seen you should be able to do anything you want based on the 8 skills that you equip on your bar. Of course you would want to push 1 stat over the other for healing/tanking/dps. I think healing has the possibility of being a little easier based on what I have seen.

    The majority of heals on at least 1 of the classes is reticle heals, which means you will need communication between your dps and heals. I have a feeling that within the 40 man raid, each sub-group (or however you want to divvy out healing assignments) will require formations and a great deal of communication. Basically knowing how to call out what heals for your group is coming, how to stack based on the boss's mechanics so that the targeted heal will hit your dps and tank
  19. Rysta

    Rysta New Cupcake

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    But according to the Warrior Stream, all the healers will have a lot more of targeted abilities than the rest of the classes. Just that their life is supposed to be a bit easier. Just imagine you as a healer trying to skillshot your Stalker-Tank while he rolls and flops around like a trout.
  20. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I remember the april's fool (or what kind of spoof it was) that healers were getting a Hit requirement, way back in WoW. Free form healing an a dodge environment is kind of the same. :p

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