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Problem with Faction Presentation

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Quantum Wizard, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry for the misgendering. :(

    It's the name. I always think of names that end in A as female.

    -Rachel-
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  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well I get on almost every forum/game etc. :D So i'm used to it.
  3. Fingers

    Fingers Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think we're in danger of judging actions by our standards here.

    Without wanting to delve too deeply, I don't see it as being so much about right or wrong or good or evil so much as cultural differences. What might be abhorrent to us might be perfectly normal for another.

    Putting aside arguments revolving around whether some recognised others as being sentient or not, or had limited intelligence it's quite possible that the execution of a diplomat was made for reasons of insult or plain indifference that we cannot relate to. In our eyes that's bad but in there's it might be done without a second thought. It's just normal, for them. All we can do, in the context of it being a game, is decide if we approve or not and choose our preference accordingly.

    Anyway, I don't know anything about the lore, was just pointing out another consideration. That said, the thread has made me curious and if anyone could direct me to where I can find this then I'd appreciate it.

    Also, and most importantly, once again, the Exiles Girl is cute :D.
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  4. Fingers

    Fingers Cupcake-About-Town

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    P.S. I found the comment on how do you murder a toaster very funny :roflamo:.
  5. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    But that viewpoint would also completely absolve the Dominion of any evil acts since their society is not our own and all acts of violence on their part are similarly unknowable to us in relation to their cultural mores.

    That's why it's important to be an outside observer looking at things without the cultural bias. Or at least without as much as we can divest ourselves of.

    -Rachel-
  6. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    You beat me to the punch, was going to point this out myself. In particular about whoever it was discarding the Romans as barbarians and thugs, presumably because they invaded and annexed others (or due to things like gladiatorial games). But here's the thing - the Romans were no more brutal or barbaric than any other power before or following it for quite a long time. In fact, by the standards of that time, they must be considered fairly tame, though very efficient as a conquering nation.

    But like all things they too were children of their time with a very different set of parameters concerning culture, life expectancy, science, art, philosophy and threats from what we ourselves face. It would be incredibly unfair to judge them by our standards, given that what they did must've been normal for them and reasonable from their point of view. We can look back at some of the aspects of their society and go "Well, that seems pretty barbaric." (and going by our viewpoint it might well be), but it is impossible to apply our standards to them because most of those are not the same as what they had then, and that was all *they* knew at the time.

    This is one part of the problem. The other is that we tend to see progress as a linear function - time moves on and so do we progress. But that's simply not true. Much like my writing progress can meander and take unexpected (and weird, in the case of my writing) turns before it reaches its 'goal'. To borrow and paraphrase terminology from Doctor Who, progress is really more timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly than a straight line.

    Essentially, having space-age technology does not mean you have to be enlightened by our standards, or that indeed you will have had space (pun not entirely intended) to become such.

    I'd say the comparison to the Roman Empire is perfectly apt when it comes to the Dominion. They are not the same, but they share clear similarities.

    What I'm essentially saying is that we do not know what outside factors and dangers have formed the Empire/Dominion, nor what challenges they have had to overcome. We only know that they believe themselves chosen to lead by the Eldan and a few conflicts here and there, plus small snippets of lore about things like the Luminai. In short, we do not have sufficient information, let alone all the facts, to tell exactly what is going on here.

    This applies also in part to the Exile, for who we have mostly just snippets of information about their interactions and clashes with the Dominion, but precious little about what else they have done. Assuming they exist not only as a foil to the Dominion and that they don't plan exactly everything they do from what the Empire is up to (or vice versa), right now we mostly just see the good side of the Exile and given that a lot of lore has been told from an Exile-centric viewpoint, mostly bad sides of the Dominion. But that does not mean the Exile are squeaky-clean or good either, merely that we have precious little information about possible less savory affairs of theirs (if any).

    But yes, right now the Dominion looks more shady than the Exile, that much is clear. I am however reluctant to say they're evil with so little information available. That those they conquer enjoy a relatively free way of life is also an indication to me that there's more sides to this than what this argument might lead one to believe.

    Anyway, I really would like to urge people on both sides of this argument to consider waiting for more tidbits before considering the nature of the factions set in stone. Also, for the love of all that is holy try to steer away from accusing whoever you are debating with of approving of things we might find barbaric when they're merely trying to put it into context. Nothing good ever comes of that.

    End of rant. :)
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  7. Fingers

    Fingers Cupcake-About-Town

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    But the cultural bias is there, nonetheless - that's why I chose the word execution rather than murder in the diplomat example. Perhaps he had committed a crime, a grave insult against a species that does not tolerate it. In which case it wasn't murder but rather justice, as his race understands it.

    I don't think it possible to observe without cultural bias interfering.

    If we pause to consider evil itself, for me it's not something that is ever set in stone. What is classified as evil changes according to changes in our attitudes over time. Our respective societies determine what is good and what is evil - and assuming the in-game races acknowledge either, they will have their own definitions and measures depending on what they consider right and wrong.

    Where I felt the executioner shared my own values I'd've judged him accordingly.

    But if you think about it, and again without any knowledge of the lore (so forgive me) you could imagine a scenario where the Dominion embark on a crusade where everyone, everywhere share their values.

    Sorry to have waffled so long :laugh:.
  8. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ignorantia juris non excusat. Just because the Mechari don't know that threatening tribal leaders is a death-penalty offense doesn't protect them from that death penalty. Just because the Granok don't know that killing the ambassadors will start a war doesn't protect them from the war.

    -Rachel-
  9. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    To Execute someone:
    1. to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law.
    2. to murder; assassinate.

    I think the better word choice would be ''he ended his life trough the use of force'', that's being diplomatic about it without cultural bias, since you just summed up the facts ;) Since you don't know the law of each races, and you didn't want to use the word ''murder''.

    Also go watch Psycho-Pass, then you really get the big question mark if ''ending someone's life is a bad thing'' :D seriously an awesome anime, and a real twist (mind-f*ck).
  10. Kyro

    Kyro Cupcake

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    Aye, ignorance is never a very good defense, but it is certainly the beginning of so very many conflicts throughout history.
  11. Fingers

    Fingers Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually, execution doesn't include murder in any definition I have seen, and in the context it was presented it fit :p. But if you want to be fussy we can just say killed :D.
  12. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Killed works fine. That's how Ethics handles the issue. Rather than using execution, assassination, murder, or other charged words it just refers to killing.

    Ethics judges the justness of a killing by the circumstances around the act to determine whether the act was just or unjust.

    -Rachel-
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  13. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Good ;)
  14. Yinello

    Yinello Cupcake-About-Town

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    Truly no faction is evil or good. WildStar has presented this pretty well. The Dominion and the Exiles both have their own idea of what a good society is. The Dominion like order and safety, while the Exiles want freedom and adventure. Both views come with their negative aspects (the Exiles have no proper rule, the Dominion have little freedom of speech) that the other faction hates.

    I don't feel there's a point towards trying to figure out which faction is more 'evil'. Some people will perform evil deeds and some will be good, some actions will have a huge impact on society and thus give a faction a more horrid stereotype, but the actions of everyone equals what they all are: beings who do what they think they need to do to keep on living. There's nothing more neutral than that.
  15. Azadeth

    Azadeth New Cupcake

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    While there's not as much grey as there could be, yes, the Dominion is quite clearly an imperialistic, oppressive "manifest destiny" society that doesn't sound very appetizing to people who are keen on freedom and democracy.

    Which is just fine with me, because I always want to play the bad guys!
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  16. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    LOL good read. Now if you all step out of your RP forms and come back to the real world you know you have to spin it to make the Dominion the good guys. Good stuff though, I see why many of you are good at RP.
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  17. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    bitch_slap-300x225.jpg
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  18. Evgen88

    Evgen88 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Still not swayed on the grey part at all. The presentation of the factions is no where near grey. Compare the granok killing 5 guys (1 vs 5, sounds pretty fair) with the Mechari shooting someone for throwing a paper plane.
    You could say that you don't actually see him shooting someone, but it's implied, and saying otherwise is just grasping at straws. Add the mechari instructor and the whole dominion attitude of keeping down the riff raff and it's very clear. The rebels are the righteous underdog the Dominion the oppressive evil empire. That is all over every video.
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  19. CaRaDaGaiTa

    CaRaDaGaiTa Cupcake-About-Town

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    Who win the war is who will be the good.
  20. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Pretty much. If the Brits had squashed the Colonial Army we'd remember Jefferson and the other founding fathers as violent and seditious instigators of a massive wave of terrorism.

    -Rachel-

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