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PvE Progression

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by hopscotch, May 8, 2013.

  1. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    I totally hate the idea of dungeons being a gateway to raids ( even if i can see why it's sometime needed ) and moreover the idea of 20 men raids being a gateway to 40 men, 20 men absolutely needs to be an end in themselves for atleast some peoples and not only a mean toward 40 men or W* will fail hard. For instance, i consider myself a hardcore player but i don't really picture myself in huge 40 men raids if they happen to be facerolling bosses where personal mistakes are not even noticeable, but in 20 men raid, less people means more responsibility to each.


    Make solo elder game an end in itself. And not a mean toward Dungeons/raids.
    Make Dungeons an end in themselves. And not a mean toward raids.
    Make 20 men raids an end in themselves. And not a mean toward 40 men raids
    Make 40 men raids an end in themselves ( kinda natural here :D )


    That would means you can handle each new 40 men raids with the former 40 men raid gear, same for raids and dungeons if they happen to release new dungeons. But some guilds would maybe want to gear up a little in the new 20 men raid and that's fine.
  2. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Which Blizzard rectified with the 1st expansion! Why even bring this old mistake into the argument ?! New MMOs released these days have no excuse to make the same mistakes. They have plenty of examples to learn from, and also the market is much more mature these days and won't accept MMOs who dwell on past features and refuse to adapt.
  3. Tokyomurai

    Tokyomurai Cupcake

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    You should read over the stuff you write before you post it.
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  4. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Uncertain if it has been mentioned before but due to the nature of this game PvE progression curve, what that being dungeons/quests/crafts, attenuation > 20 mans > 40 mans.

    The lore side of it has been split unlike WoW where a theme and story is set and you must participate in raids to see it's final development that won't be here. So the masses don't have to join in if they don't like to do so.



    What i do want to see them adopt from WoW is challenge modes, dungeons that scale you down in gear to a a certain level so gear does not help you bypass certain difficulties and than the mobs and everything get boosted up.

    Add to that there's now a timer, With depending on how well you do there's a gold, silver and bronze medal award. Finish them successfully and you earned yourself a nice looking set of armor.
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  5. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    Needs more than just a like. Challenge modes provided extra content that players could get rewards from and continue to due. So much potential in a system like this. One of the few new things which are good.
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    You can argue should and should not all day, but Carbine has stated (on a number of occasions) that raiding is going to be hard, it's going to be epic, and if you don't like it, there's PLENTY OF OTHER STUFF TO DO. This is where Carbine intends to make "that special magic."

    Read this post, then come back, and if the argument still doesn't make sense, read the post again.
    http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/balance.2952/page-7#post-64164

    Because rated PvP is arenas and warplots. Warplots are also 40 mans. But Elo rated PvP content is automatically limiting who the players are up against. The top teams aren't going to be matched against a newbie, or bad teams. So... rated pvp is already this way... IN ALL GAMES!

    Also, with that logic, statistically of course you're right. What percent of MMO's have been successful 2%? Also, would you call EVE a good MMO? Because they're successful. Where are your credentials, other than self proclaimed prophet?

    If you make raiding content so that it's difficult, and difficult to do, only the driven players will want to do it. The reason in most games why players try to raid, is because there's nothing better to do at end game, or it's the expected end game. I've made this argument so many times. Players (as a mass, and in many cases) see the big end boss of the game, and know that you defeat them in a raid. So they say "Oooo, I'd like to go kill him." This makes them then go raid. In Wildstar, not the case, the game's about exploring Nexus, and has lots of end game solo play to support the players who decide they don't want to go through the trouble of raiding.

    Raiding isn't the MMO game, so don't say it's going to fail due to lack of accessibility to one aspect of the game. I don't think I've ever heard of an MMO failing because it was too hard, only if stuff's broken, or too easy. I'm sure they exist, and I hope someone points them out to me, but I just haven't heard of them.
  7. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

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    You mean they "rectified" it halfway through the expac after the majority of the team that formed Carbine was "let go". This is the very reason why I am interested in this title.
  8. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd love to see just how many Carbine devs are WoW devs, link?
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    They are taking from WoW... just not the same raiding model. If you want another WoW so bad... play WoW.
  10. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just as a little clarification of my idea:

    Gear will be powered as:
    D1 > D2 > D3 > R1 > D4 > R2 > D5 > R3

    Edit: D1 > D2 > R1 > D3 > R2 > D4 > R3 - less "active content"

    And continuing on into eternity.

    This gives 3 raiding tiers available before the first is rendered obsolete.

    At any one time this means that there are affectively 3 difficulty levels:

    Current: Hard
    Current - 1: Medium
    Current - 2: Easy

    Not sure how to address 20/40 man raid differences (depends on how their loot works / how many raids of each they have). But in general it should allow medium skill players to be able to progress either 1 or 2 tiers behind current.

    My ideal progression would be if they released regular content (ie every week or 2) so that people would always have something new to do. If they release 1 dungeon every 2 weeks, then every 2 months release a new raid - it gives everyone a chance to do raid content while it's current and allows 2 weeks for the "perfect achievement". Could even have a gap of 4 weeks before starting the next cycle again - all depends on how much content carbine is willing to pump out.

    Week by week breakdown - dungeons released weekly after raids have been out for a month. Assume 4 dungeons per tier.

    D > D > D > D, R > _ > _ > _ > _ > repeat

    Edit: D > _ > D, R > _ > D > _ > D > _ > repeat (more steady progression.

    This brings a steady progression boost to those that are not yet progressing through previous content, while allowing those that are skilled enough to do the content a large amount of time (of course depending on how progression between 40 mans and 20 mans is handled there will be more/less dungeons and raid's in different spots). This is assuming 1 raid per tier, with 20 and 40 mans alternating tiers.

    With this system there would be 6 months before content is rendered obsolete - allowing a large portion of the community to break into progression raiding at their skill level.

    The main argument is "providing raiding to people outside the 1%" - the 1% in this system will be the only ones to complete it in current tier and they have an entire month before the content is rendered easier in any way.

    I don't take into account solo content - which will inevitably push the gear value up (so there will have to be a certain amount of solo content per dungeon release).

    TL;DR: Steady content releases, no direct content nerfs, not giving out free content, everyone gets to try to compete at their level.
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  11. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

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    http://www.linkedin.com/company/carbine-studios
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2007/10/06/carbine-studios-and-their-super-secret-mmorpg/

    Those are just from quick searches, keep in mind its grown since. As far as I am aware the actual direct amount of who is from where is not printed anywhere, though I am sure if you are actually inclined enough that you could track down who all is employed on the Carbine payroll and do the background checks on each of them to determine who all is from where. Though at the time of that Massively article the design team only numbered "roughly 50" which is pretty standard that early in production. :)
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, with this would Dungeon difficulty of D4 be harder than raiding content R1? If so, that'd be a good system, because it ends up making a "catch up" system for alts but not new players.

    I don't like the 20-40 man alternating tiers though... That'd make 20 man raids rage every time a 40 man came out, since 40-man's can just split into 2 groups and still down 20 man content.

    I think a slightly better version would be:

    (Difficulty = gear, and < means less than...)
    |D1 < R1| = |D2 < R2| = |D3 < R3|
    _Tier 1_____Tier 2_____Tier 3

    This way both 20-man and 40-man can have the same release schedule, and just be different. Also, there's a "catch up" mechanic for very skilled new players and alts for each tier, given by very difficult dungeons which will then give gear for the next tier of raiding. These dungeons should be very punishing, just take less time to complete than a normal raid.
  13. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only problem about that is that previous raids are rendered obsolete in a single patch.

    I specifically mentioned that we don't know how they've planned on doing 20/40 differences (just that they're different raids). We know that 20 and 40 mans aren't going to have the same loot, just better versions - but if they just have different loot of the same skill level then that would be sufficient.

    Difficulty is directly related to rewards, yes. Though at the same time - some people can be good at 5 mans and not good at 20 mans, so it's a hard thing to balance.
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ok, then the 2nd dungeon would be slightly harder than the 1st raid, and drop the same gear. This would mean that players have the skill commitment without the time or player commitment. It's a way for players to get alts geared for the 2nd raid more easily, or if a player just got picked up by a guild and wasn't playing the game during the 1st raid. Otherwise guilds will poach players simply because they have the gear.

    Maybe make it so that players can be dungeoneers as their end game. Make each new set of dungeons harder than the previous raid tier, but drop the same loot. That way the epic focus is still on raiding, but the 5 man groups still satisfied. Of course this would probably just be better as a challenge mode type thing...
  15. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm definitely intrigued to know just how many of them are previous WoW devs are on the massive 200+ team now. Part of me hopes it's a big part of the team knowing how innovative the ideas WoW vanilla bought. But thinking back, some of it was terrible.
  16. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

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    Most of that is honestly immaterial, as it really depends on who did the initial designs. The pull in of Lebow (Fallout) was a huge catch too. They have a number of devs in high places that have worked on some of the most beloved and well designed games of the last decade.

    I also agree that WoW did a number of things wrong(itemization for example). As much as people piss and moan about it being a clone and stealing from other titles it really did innovate in a number of ways. So far Wildstar appears to be similar in a number of ways. While I am sure it will not reach that same level of success (the market is too damn big now honestly) it most certainly appears to have a built in audience. If they can capture that Vanilla WoW feel the game will be amazing.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I basically agree with the whole post, but wanted to comment on this bit.

    Anyone who argues that "stealing" from other games being bad, is wrong. They are simply using other games as testing grounds for ideas. It is very expensive for developers to create tools and systems that aren't appreciated. If someone implemented the tool first, and is a good idea, why not use it? It's not necessary to innovate in systems that already work, just the ones that don't.
  18. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Keep in mind how attunements also worked in TBC, requiring full raids to return to out-dated content to get people the necessary boss kills to raid in the further-progressed instances.

    Fun for the first batch of recruits. Utter hell for the rest.

    Making an attunement that's fully on individual players to complete? Something like that actually sounds fun and reasonable. It'd never get outdated, as it's 100% relative to the individual player, not a bigger group. The whole issue with attunements + groups is the group eventually surpasses the point and content becomes disliked as a result.

    An alternative might be an attunement that shortens as content is unlocked by top-tier raiding guilds. i.e. Getting to Tier 1 requires Tier 0 attunement, but once Tier 2 unlocks, the Tier 0 attunements disappear and only Tier 1 attunement steps remain. It'd keep the community on the same stepping stone, relatively.
  19. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd argue 5-man Challenge Modes in MoP rival or exceed the difficulty of 10-man Normal raids. Gold Modes might even be on par with 10-man Heroic raids. There is a lot of pre-planning, research, and optimization that goes into a successful 5-man CM Gold Run. So the potential for challenging 5-man content exists, no question.

    However, you're right in that the challenge is just "different". CM's are about speed-killing. TBC 5-mans were about (until outgearing it) coordination and CC. TBC-like dungeons sadly never made it to future expansions. Well, they kinda made a comeback for Cataclysm, but that went down like a sack of potatoes when you mixed it with random grouping.
  20. Mike Hatley

    Mike Hatley Cupcake

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    Not really. They were pretty easy to get you just needed to spend a raid night every 3 weeks or so to take care of it. Keep in mind the number that couldn't kill Kael and Vashj generally did not get very far in BT and Hyjal anyway.

    Possibly, but I for one liked having a reason to return. There were always those rare drops, and the ones who wanted teir peices for offset and the mats/recipes etc. Even for the "less hardcore" folks who were raiding 3 nights a week 1-2 raid nights a month was not a large burden as they could still use the gear from the previous tier anyway generally.

    I feel that is generally sketchy though. You tend to run into huge problems with experience when you do things like that. Using 20 mans and alt runs to try out new comers is always a possibility, but that same thing can be used to get attunements too. Besides, depending on how warplot currencies work there will likely be a thriving currency run which can also be used to key people. From the sounds of it they expect large guilds, with even tight ship raiding guilds likely running 50 players, its rather likely your standard is going to be closer to the 100-150 range pulling from all different types of players.

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