1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

PvP being "normalized"

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Spaz, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    What's even happening in this thread?
    We know there is PvP gear
    We know there is a ELO based ranking system with gear tiers tied to it
    We know that unrated BG have nromalised gear.

    Wouldn't it be safe to assume then that in more serious (WPs ,arenas, rated BGs) gear isn't normalised, what gear you can buy is linked to your elo and that gear won't be solely cosmetic?
    Milamilou and F8L Fool like this.
  2. Seahorse

    Seahorse New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    3
    This is exactly the reason I quit guild wars 2. It felt as if there was nothing to work towards. Having a feature like this makes all your hard earned work in PvP redundant...

    Queueing for non-ranked battle ground should be random unless you queue as a group then you should be put up against other groups. If I spend all this time getting the best gear, I should be able to queue up for a BG and use it against others of any gear level.
  3. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Normalised doesn't mean you're made completely equal it means the gap is made smaller; if you fight against a level 10 in questing greens you'll still have a stat and ability (skill and toon wise) advantage and likely still face roll him it just wont be a oneshot.
    This is also only for unranked, if you're a serious PvP you don't care about unranked because it's unranked. Gear certainly wont be normalised in open world PvP and it likely won't in ranked BGs, arenas and warplots.

    Why would a hardcore PvPer care if the playing field is made slightly more level in unranked (fun, casual, alt) content? In serious content you'd still have the advantage over a less geared player.
    Milamilou likes this.
  4. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    755
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I thought this too, is there any rewards in unranked that a veteran pvper would want to go after? could he be going there for tokens or something he could spend, or does unranked have no rewards tied to it?
  5. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    I'm all for normalization, but it should be limited. Maybe not even all BGs, but some BGs, or having both normalized, and not normalized BGs to choose from. Arenas and Warplots should not be normalized.

    I understand gear is important for a lot of people, but those people have to understand that for many others, gear is not important at all, but skill is king. Carbine is trying to cater to both, so that is why they are doing this, and I think it is good.
    F8L Fool likes this.
  6. Seahorse

    Seahorse New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    3

    Because sometimes its fun to have some casual PvP with friends and faceroll :D
  7. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Well, based on their decision of equalizing gear, clearly the developers at Wildstar seem to want PvP to appeal to the competitive players. When making a game that appeals to competitive players, it's a good idea to look at what attracts competitive players, thus making other genres that are more successful at this relevant. As far as GW2 goes, as I stated, if players are leaving a skill>gear PvP oriented game in only a year, that does not mean that skill>gear systems do not work. If every player left GW2 the day after launch, all this would really mean is that GW2 failed. There are plenty of games that focus on gear>skill that fail, just as there are games that try for skill>gear that fail. One example that fails does not mean that the entire concept is doomed to follow.

    Again, seeing as how this is a discussion of PvP and competitive players, concepts that make other genres succeed at this should be considered. I am for Elo/ranking, and I have no problem with gear, as long as that gear gives no advantage in PvP. The only place I see the comment in OP's post stating that PvP gear is equalized is while within PvP areas. Maybe the gear has great stats to be used in PvE, maybe not. If PvP was well balanced, I would not care if the gear that it offered had no stats at all outside of being equalized in PvP. It displays your rank, but it does nothing more for you in a match, which is why LoL's Elo system is comparable.

    The thing is, not everyone is going to be at the top bracket and the top rating. As you have already pointed out, not everyone is able to get to the top of a ranking system. There is only room for one in first place. Instead of dealing with potential issues of imbalance caused by gear discrepancies in lower brackets of PvP, they simply equalized PvP in all brackets. This way even players of a lower rating could compete on equal grounds with people of a higher rating as well as players of their own rating. Being able to challenge players of a higher rank could be more fun or a quicker boost for a player if they have the skill to compete in that rank, but this becomes a bit complicated if the higher ranked players are heavily advantaged simply because they are higher in rank. If gear does not matter for the players at the top, why should it matter for people at the bottom and in between? The developers want the PvP to attract competitive players, not provide a competitive opportunity only to the minority at the top.
  8. Silverbacks

    Silverbacks New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    3

    The underlying fundamental of an MMO is character progression. The underlying fundamental of PvE is to progress your character through the PvE content. The underlying fundamental of PvP is to progress the strength of your character out on the battlefield.

    I get bored when playing games like CoD, Street Fighter, and even GW2, at a relatively quick rate. But I can play an MMO for months/years at a time without getting bored. And my favourite part of any MMO is PvP.

    It's the on going progression of an MMO that keeps me entertained. I like to watch my level 1 character grow stronger and stronger as they experience more and more of the game world. There should be some way to feel a progression of strength throughout the PvP experience. It can get stale very fast if everyone is automatically bumped up to max stats from the beginning. They have no where to go from there. Even LoL has progression through talent trees, unlocking summoner skills, buying runes, and acquiring more champions. And because of that, LoL kept my interest for much longer than most other non-MMOs.

    However I do understand that there needs to be a balance made. I think the best way to do that would be to have the normalization system bump a lower level up so that they can be relatively competitive in their bracket, but not bump them all they way up to the max possible stats that someone in that bracket can have. Maybe a system that will buff a lower level up to 70-85% of the strength of a fully maxed out character for their bracket. The vast majority, if any, of the players they meet will not even be fully maxed out. And the ones that are fully maxed out will eventually level out of the bracket through PvP experience (assuming that level 50s will have their own bracket). Then they could design it that the best level 50 PvP gear is only around 15-30% stronger than the lowest level 50 PvP gear.
  9. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    While it is true that MMORPGs were originally designed with the premise of obtaining gear and becoming more powerful as a result, they were also originally developed with PvE content in mind. Online gamers are becoming more competitive, and MMORPGs seem to have followed suit by introducing a heavier focus towards PvP. It appears the developers at Wildstar want to follow this trend by giving players a balanced competitive environment. Gear and balance cannot really coexist, so the developers appear to have decided to remove that aspect of Wildstar's PvP.
  10. Tarchannen

    Tarchannen New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    3
    A guy who has 100 hours of PvP under his belt should have an advantage over a guy who has 5. Not just in skill but in progression. His character is a veteran. It should be honed for killing. Maybe a system to kind of bridge the gap, or exclude Sergeant Slaughter being teamed up against Private Pumpernickle in ranked matches. But normalization across the board? That is bull. That makes it meaningless to try and progress your character in PvP.

    There have to be things you want to achieve: Goals to reach. If time spent doesn't make your character better; then it won't last.

    Now, for top tier tournaments: Yeah you better put everyone on a similar level. For anything less than going for the best in the nation/world/whatever-bracket; get out of here with that kumbaya <REDACTED>.
  11. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    755
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This seems to be almost the same argument from players on a pvp server wanting fair fights in open world pvp.
  12. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    18
    As far as equalizing gear it is only going to be in Battlegrounds, which I am not really against since it simply the first Tier and it is implemented to help fresh 50s get some basic PvP gear before Arena and WarPlots which won't be equalized. Sorry, but trying to compare console games and MMOs is like comparing the NBA with the NFL, they are both sports and have some similarities but are totally different . You really underestimate how big GW2 was hyped and the player base at the start. From what I have seen it was easily the biggest so called Skill > Gear MMO to be released yet. I personally don't play them, since they lack incentive once you hit cap but that is me.
    Once again, I am pretty sure you are wrong about this. I am almost positive that it is only implemented in Battlegrounds. Nothing else to say since you also agree with the Elo / Ranking system.
    Guess I will have to give you a brief explanation on how Brackets and Rating works towards acquiring gear. Which I thought you understood with your previous post. Lets say for example there is going to be three Elo brackets that range from 1000-1500 and 1500-2000 and 2000+. Leg PvP armor requires 1300, Chest PvP armor requires 1600, Head PvP armor requires 1750, and PvP Weapons requires 2050. With the matchmaking system Wildstar is going to be using you will only face opponents in your bracket and therefore they should have similar to your current PvP gear and Skill LvL. You won't see a person with a 2050 PvP weap in the 1000-1500 bracket, but you will see people with lower Tier Gear and Leg PvP Armor if they have 1300 or above. When I say Tiers it is going to be BGs < Arena < WarPlots.

    You keep talking about skill, but if this so called Skilled person is so good than they should have no problem with climbing the brackets. Which will lead to the top bracket, where gear won't matter. "Gear is just another incentive." To be honest I have killed and I have seen hundred of times, where the better geared player loses anyways, and this whole gear thing is starting to sound like casuals crying.
    F8L Fool and WakeskaterX like this.
  13. Zybak

    Zybak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Radford, Virginia
    The only way MMO's can succeed is if you keep the players engaged with compelling rewards. Gear is usually the most compelling of everything. Skins and titles will only go so far, just look at how dead Guild Wars 2 eSport style of PvP is. I'm all for competitiveness in MMOs, played way too many Arena games in WoW and was top 10 on my BG at one point in the upper 2500's.

    With that being said FUN and replayability is infinitely more important to keeping your game alive than super balanced eSports <REDACTED>. I think Arenas should be the considered the hyper competitive PvP bracket and should be normalized. Everything else should be the Wild West with crazy PvE/PvP gear combinations, potions, consumables, and the whole shabang.
  14. WakeskaterX

    WakeskaterX Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    28
    But one shotting Level 10s with a twinked out 19 rogue was SO FUN. And I mean literal 1 shots with Ambush. Sure it's PROBABLY not fun for them but I mean, it was really funny to see.

    I do agree though twinks became a problem with PvP progression f0r a while in WoW during leveling. It was basically: Who has the most twinks in the BG? And that team won. Not always, but generally.

    Leveling alts this wasn't a problem as I could buy lvl 29/39/49 gear and enchant it and have it waiting for my toon when he got there but for a first time character I can see how that wouldn't be much fun.

    Rift did well with the issue: If you were level 10 or 11, you had your stats boosted up so you'd do better dmg and had okay health, but you weren't going to 1v1 a competent level 19. The skill and gear advantage was still there slightly.

    I'm only for normalization while leveling btw, I think at max level it should be raw stats based on gear. Because you are all the same level so work for the same gear that those guys got OR be more skilled. Then you'll win.
  15. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Riddings, Derbyshire UK
    The only thing they should use in determining who fights who is ELO, gear should not be normalised, its a mistake, and the funny things its the same old story, the PvE players whinning about PvP.
  16. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    UK
    Gear and balance CAN coexist, it just requires intelligent and thoughtful developers to make it work.

    Basically, you need horizontal gear progression. You hit max level and from there, all gear sets have the same item level but the set bonuses and stat distributions differ. This means that, at cap, there is no gear gap at all, but gear still remains an important progression tool. Gear becomes part of the meta-game. You get the gear sets that suit your playstyle, your team and your class. Progressing in pvp (i.e. killing, ranking up etc) allows you to buy more alternative pvp gear sets which lets you further customise your gear.

    New players would still be competitive and would only lose if they were less-skilled, but veteran players would still get rewards that allow them to be more flexible in their build and setup so they can really perfect their playstyle.


    An example:

    Upon reaching 50, a stalker could buy some crafted gear. This has balanced stats and no set bonus.
    After PvPing for a few months they complete their first pvp set. This set has more damage stats but less health, allowing the stalker to have a more burst-orientated playstyle.
    After another month they get another pvp set. This one is focused on crit and health but average damage stats so the stalker changes their build to take advantage of the crit.


    The result is that no matter what the gear, the stalker still has the same amount of stats as everyone else but after pvping for a while they really manage to hone their personal playstyle and modify their gear to support their playstyle. For example, I am a fan of turtling in pvp so I would prefer gear sets that focus on health procs and mitigation, whereas other people might prefer to jsut deal as much damage as humanly possible so they focus on damage, crit etc. When facing each other we would have comparable gear even though it is completely different. The outcome of the fight would depend on our skill level combined with our choices for the gear meta game.
  17. F8L Fool

    F8L Fool Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    California

    If there is no difference in iLvl then there ceases to be true gear progression. I understand the fundamentals of what you are saying, and what it comes down to is sort of cloning the GW2 method of gearing but with a minor tweak. You'd still have normalisation of raw stats and levels, but in your example you'd have to grind Sigils, Jewels and Runes (bonuses and proper stat distribution) to make the ideal suit for yourself; as opposed to getting them for free.

    So you'd retain some form of a grind because people would hopefully have to make serious choices about how they spend currency, but in reality have no progression. How so? Because there is always one or two "ideal builds" that people adopt. Provide the community with 20 different bonus/rune/whatever sets for their class and theorycrafters will distill it down to 2-3 optimal ones, that vary based on situational your role and composition. The result would be people grinding enough to buy their preferred one of the three and the progression would then be over. Until it was nerfed and they spent their now stored up currency on the next FOTM.

    If GW2 has taught us anything it is that people refuse to continuously play MMO's without some type of measurable progression, beyond purely cosmetic gear and ranks. That approach works in some arena based games and MOBA's, but those are entirely different audiences and they have high player turnover—something a MMO can't have and still maintain a healthy community.
  18. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    UK
    They key to horizontal gear progression is to make sure that there aren't ever best-in-slot builds/gear setups that are good for all situations.

    Essentially, what I'm describing is what has existed in LOTRO for the majority of the game. You could clear just about all endgame in the top crafted gear but it was much harder than if you perfected your gear and builds for each activity/dungeon/raid. It also took significant time to acquire all the gear so whilst you might have your mind set on a specific build, it would still take you a long time to get there. LOTRO also (initially) had a good release schedule so even if you did perfect your gear, you didn't have to wait long for newer / better stuff to come out.


    A good example: I played a captain in LOTRO

    For pvp, I had a healer build, a dps build and an all-rounder build. For each of these builds, I had specific gear setups depending on whether I was solo, in a small group or in a raid. So, that is nine different gear setups needed. There was definitely cross-over in gear between the builds but it essentially meant that I needed to get every single piece of endgame gear that I could wear in order to play my class to the maximum potential. That took a hell of a lot of time. Conversely, once I had completed the very first build/gear setup (solo dps in this case) I was immediately able to take part and be on an even footing with everyone else, I was just locked in to a single way of playing. I always felt very proud when I completed a new gear set, especially ones that required rare drops or high ranks because it meant I was still unique and "better" than most other captains (epeen ftw).


    Forgetting all this though, I recognise that I'm not a game designer and other people are way smarter than me. Ultimately, I want a system where skill is more important than gear but where gear still provides progression and rewards. I don't ever want to be restricted by gear in terms of activity (i.e. if I focus on raiding, I want to be able to dabble in pvp without being penalised) and I want the game to encourage cross-over between pve and pvp communities so that both stay healthy. I think horizontal gear progression at endgame would provide that but I will be happy if the devs can think of something better.
  19. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Likes Received:
    228
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Horizontal gear progression requires other factors. The primary being a game built around, and a playerbase that wants to play, classes that have a variety of builds for a variety of situations. If you have a majority of players who just want to be/do X, and have no desire to play Y, then they have no incentive to get the gear for Y. This means there is no gear progression, which leads to those players playing less (or not playing) once they complete their necessary gear. Yet, forcing horizontal gear progression in an encounter by encounter (instead of role/build) sort of way is like having resist gear in a game. In concept it is something players can build towards to able to do fights or make certain fights easier, yet in practice it isn't that compelling, and if it is actually required to complete an encounter then it can quickly become a chore. I would guess you are in the minority in terms of wanting to build 9 sets of gear for a character.
    F8L Fool likes this.
  20. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    When discussing what makes viewers enjoy professional sports then comparing both the NBA and the NFL, as well as every other successful professional sport, would be highly relevant. If one were to attempt to create their own sport for sport enthusiasts, not looking at what makes all of those before it successful, even if attempting to be entirely different in concept, would be a foolish approach. I am also aware that GW2 was excessively hyped, but that only means more people are going to leave faster if it does not deliver. Excessive hype is detrimental to any title that does not launch as a masterpiece. If people are expecting the best PvP experience, and they do not get said experience, they are going to be more upset than if they were expecting average at best and got way more than they bargained for.

    I understand how brackets work, but even they have balancing issues that exist for everyone that is not at the top, which will be a heavy majority of the player base. If there is a bracket for all people between 1000-1500, but a piece of the PvP armor requires 1300-1500, then those who are just entering the bracket will be disadvantaged against other members of their bracket solely on the fact that they entered the bracket later. If ranked PvP gear was all perfectly bracket balanced to the point where you would never face people without the exact same gear, then I fail to see how it is not more efficient to simply balance it all to be the same from the beginning.

    Also, if the PvP gear is not normalized but still usable in all forms of PvP, then players with a higher standing in ranked PvP are inherently better off in non-ranked PvP than everyone else.

    I have yet to see any comments (maybe I missed them) about players being matched in Wildstar by rank in non-ranked PvP, so this is still a concern.
    EDIT: Just reread the original post and noticed it indeed states that player in unranked BGs will indeed balance by gear value, but then states that gear is then normalized to the maximum level of the bracket. I guess I'll have to wait and see or wait for an official announcement as to why gear values must be separated if the gear is going to be normalized anyway.

    Higher ranked players should place well in non-ranked PvP solely because they have demonstrated their ability to perform well in PvP and not be overwhelming simply because they have the gear their high rank offers. Making cybernetic enhancements that grant an incomparable amount of strength, precision and speed illegal in the NFL or NBA, but allowing the top 5% of athletes to have said enhancements simply because they are the top ranked players or because they have been there the longest would really destroy any sense of balance for everyone else.

    Some less skilled people still like to compete. People should be allowed to compete in a match of skill without being the best players and not have to worry about also overcoming gear differences. Players who cannot reach the top should not be further disadvantaged by an unachievable itemization gap simply because they are not part of the minority at the top. While it is possible to win a match while outgeared, this does not change the fact that the person without the gear had to overcome imbalanced odds. I can go around smashing casual Super Smash Bros.: Melee players with Mewtwo, this doesn't change the fact that he's a poorly designed character at the bottom of the tiers with nonexistent potential in a competitive environment. The whole skill can beat balance issue is conflicted with the idea that when comparing how competitively viable something is in a competitive environment, one must always consider how balanced it is among people of equal skill levels. Just because dedicated players can stomp casuals even with a handicap does not mean said handicap has any level of balance.
    Arrclyde likes this.

Share This Page