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PvP being "normalized"

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Spaz, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

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    I like disagreement since not as much discussion occurs if everyone simply responds with a thumbs up. I agree that WoW is more of a PvE game, just as Wildstar's intention seems to be. I've always personally played MMORPGs for the PvE myself, although I would greatly appreciate a competitive PvP environment that I could step into without requiring me to essentially repeat the PvE grind. Sometimes grinding or farming for character advancement is fun, but that's what I play the PvE for. I personally do not want to look at PvP as merely a way to grind gear, which is why I typically avoid MMO PvP. If they want to add incentive to ranked PvP in order to get PvE players to give it a try, they could just give PvE incentives through it that do not impact PvP. If I could find a single game that offered both enjoyable PvE AND competitive PvP that was not incentivized as if it were additional PvE content then I would likely put an excessive amount of time into that game, as well as have incentive to invite friends of varying game play preferences to try it out with me.

    This I agree with completely. Grinding for gear is more monotonous and not so much challenging. Although the gambling aspect of grinding/farming can have an addicting appeal that adds further excitement when one's dedication finally pays off, it does not add challenge. "Hardcore gamers" are not limited only to those that have excessive amounts of time, but also contains those that simply want a challenge. There is no reason why a game cannot target more than one of these demographics at a time. While I have no problem with incentives being added to PvP, I agree that it should not increase one's chances of winning simply because they have reached said incentives first.
  2. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    A quick note,

    A mmorpg without progression, that being alternate advancement systems and/or gear, has longevity concerns, as any rpg player likes to constantly advance it's also one of the strong points of MMOrpgs compared to single players where there is essentially an ending. (GW2 for example suffered from this reason you had developers rushing to get advancement out and swallowing back their words on having no gear progression in the game in general)

    A mmorpg, with gear matter too much in PvP discourages new participants what is a concern for the longevity of PvP activities in your game, if the gear gap becomes large you'll see your PvP community shrink as the game ages to the point you always meet the same players.
    This is especially true in games with constant stacking of tiers and no common ground.
    (Warhammer being a prime example Rift also, WoW not so much due to putting in efforts to close the gap and reset the gear progression every tier making the former highest tier now the lowest one and equally easy to obtain as the lowest, with a new one added to replace the former highest one..)

    Either extreme is bad, a common ground needs to be found somewhere

    You will have an incentive and normalization of gear won't remove all bonuses of not using PvP gear, the PvP offensive and defensive stat tell us that. As i'm fairly certain those stats won't be normalized.
  3. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

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    Seeing as how you seemingly do not wish to continue this discussion, I'll try to keep this response prompt, although that is admittedly not my strong suit with forum posts. I merely wish to post one last response since you seem to be interpreting my comparisons differently than their intentions, so no need to feel compelled to respond. First, just going to point out that I am not dismissing incentives in an MMO, in fact I agree that they must exist in some form. I am merely stating that incentives can exist in different forms and should not exist solely as an immediate power boost in PvP that exists solely for top ranked players.

    I am not stating that Carbine should focus different genres as their main design focus for any form of game play, merely that they should look at and consider what attracts demographics to specific genres outside of just the basic game play mechanics. Now if someone is a hardcore FPS gamer and only likes FPS games, then yeah, as an MMO Wildstar should not prioritize these gamers; however, these are not the only people that play FPS games. Some people play a wide variety of competitive games, such as playing Halo 3 when out with friends, then maybe playing some ranked team LoL matches at home while their other friends are online, followed by maybe some ranked GW2 matches with guildies when their friends all log off of LoL. These are all different genres, so instead of looking at the genre itself it becomes important to look at what these genres have in common that attract this player. Increasing the time required to be allowed to compete in higher forms of the competitive PvP environment may make it impossible or unappealing for such a player to drop GW2 and pick up Wildstar when it launches.

    I've worked for a period of time as a Game Advisor at Gamestop (luckily without commission) and have assisted with marketing of games as well as assisting a lot of customers in deciding on new games/genres. Also, most important to me I have become friends with a wide variety of gamers in my time there. Sometimes a customer comes in who has played Halo extensively for years and would now like to try something different. I would never immediately suggest they try CoD or some other FPS without asking exactly what system(s) they play on, as well as finding out what it was they liked about Halo and why they are suddenly seeking something different.

    Some people feel they have simply played enough of their favorite genre and want to try something completely different. Even the most dedicated players can eventually get burnt out on one game or even genre after years of playing. Many of these people have not even considered other genres because they've enjoyed the one they've been dedicated to so much. This same person may be a PC gamer, and may like the balanced competitive environment that Halo offers. If the customer has any interest in at least giving MMOs a chance, then having at least one form of game play dedicated to the balanced competition, or really any other area of game play that they seek, equates to one more potential customer. It is for this reason the game aims to target both casual and hardcore players by having a variety of raids, dungeons, crafting, classes, paths, housing, etc. The more variants a game possesses, the more potential players can be directed their way. There is no reason a 100% balanced competitive PvP environment should be excluded from this goal.

    If you think I seem to be stating that Wildstar needs to be turned into a Fighting MOBA FPS RTS, then I do not know any other way I can express my point.
  4. Spaz

    Spaz New Cupcake

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    Sigh, I just don't think people get it. If you make PvP gear normalize then you have PvP gear becoming pointless, that was the discussion to begin with, not "is normalized a good idea?" I said what the hell is the point of PvP gear if it is all just normalized, you might as well be in full questing greens and go into PvP and boom just as good as the guy putting 16 hours a day into PvP. Who cares if people are more geared than you or not, if you defeat someone better geared, then its rewarding. If you have better gear than someone and you kill them in like 1 shot, its extremely amusing. Normalizing gear is taking away all the fun about random PvP and making it strictly competitive and only for the rating. The people that are all for normalized gear, did you play GW2? that game died in a month... You take away progression in PvE, less people will PvE, you take away the progression in PvP, less people will PvP. I know you shouldn't compare MMOs but, as much as people hate WoW, it is one of the biggest MMOs of all time and PvP was a extremely HUGE part of the game and they had gear progression. If you get better gear, you beat more people, you get matched with people with similar gear. If you go into a BG with <REDACTED>ty gear, you will eventually get better gear and become the person with better gear. The point of normalizing is retarded, it takes away progression for the "hardcore" and even the "casuals". For the people saying its only for unraked, the very bottom says also ranked are being effected by the rallying system. As this does say "battleground" atm, I seriously hope it does not fall into Arenas or Warplots, than at least that will have a point. What's the point in playing if you cannot progress, it'd be like starting the game at max level and max gear, the game would die extremely quickly. It is the exact same concept.
  5. PatriotBob

    PatriotBob Cupcake

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the stat scaling conditional upon two things.
    1. Unranked (Casual?)
    2. Scaled to the top of the bracket
    Point 1 is debatable because I suppose that you could want to PvP but not be ranked. (League of Legends) But point 2, doesn't that mean that it primarily is effecting lower tiers? Meaning if they're bracketing players of by level (10-19,20-29,etc) rallying only really serves to make my life not-terrible when I queue up at level 20. Once we hit cap the scaling essentially stops. Which lets be honest, it's at level cap that you start to potentially have a real gear advantage over other players.
  6. Spaz

    Spaz New Cupcake

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    Lets hope it's that way.
  7. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I also don't see the need for gear in PvP to be normalized. I think it would be more of a detriment than it would be a benefit.

    With the proposed system matching players up with those equal to them, any of the negative aspects should be automatically resolved. Instead of just skill coming into play it will be Skill + Gear and thus people will be ranked accordingly based on the combination. This should result in some highly skilled players matched against lower skilled but better geared players, which is a good thing as it levels the playing field and makes it a challenge for both groups.

    Gear progression for PvP is something which makes MMO PvP appealing in the sense we are constantly working to improve our characters. For static totally skill based play it would be more apt to have a lobby game like a FPS or MOBA.

    In the case of tournaments, should there ever be a public set of matches, the solution would be just to provide each player with a fixed set of gear.
  8. Gomer

    Gomer Cupcake

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    It does say 'unranked' BGs.
  9. Dirts

    Dirts New Cupcake

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    Normalized items is not an issue. gw2 pvp did not fail because of normalized items. Look at gw1, everything was normalized there and gw1 is still one of the best mmo pvp i ever experienced. im actually gonna disagree with the most people here and say that gw2 pvp is actually pretty dam good.... the issue with gw2 is the fact that they have no matchmaking system. anyone brand new to the game can join the any pvp mode he/she wants. this means that ALOT of times teams are losing because you have some random person that has no idea what they are doing in the game.

    so if you think about it. gw2 right now is not much different from regular battlegrounds in WoW, difference is normalized gear. if they had matchmaking... people would be put in matches with and against people of similar ranks and games would be a whole lot more competitive. that is gw2 big mistake in pvp. eventually you will get tired playing if you are going to be grouped up with someone that just isnt that good. especially in a game where its focus is the group play and not individual play. how would LoL be if there wasnt any ranking system and everyone was randomly matched? sounds bad to me

    In wow there is people that can play arenas ALL day and love it because they are being matched with good players and are being challenged. im pretty sure if there was no matchmaking in wow arenas the hardcore people would have stopped playing long ago.

    another mistake is the pvp leaderboards.... currently they are a joke. i have no idea what arenanet was thinking... they should have added some type of matchmaking system before implementing it. would it make sense for WoW to have leaderboards for Regular battlegrounds? sounds stupid right? its obvious that the people on top of the leaderboards are gonna be the people that queues with groups more and dont solo queue much at all.....

    anyways i dont see any issues with wildstar having normalized gear. this is actually a good thing for competitive players. the easier a casual player can pvp the higher chance that player will play in ranked matches and that means lesser queue times.

    the thing i am concerned about in wildstar is how the elo system will work. i just hope it is not like WoW's system and and has everyone that is below 1500 rating have their rating calculated as if they have 1500... this i believe is one of the things that slowly dwindled the pvp in WoW. this made teams ratings in the 1500-1800 such a rollercoaster ride.... that and class balance. with all the flavor of the months build/classes..

    hopefully they just do regular elo and just make it you start off at 1000 or something.

    also hopefully they have something in place to deal with win traders.

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