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PvP - Does it currently work for you?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Dyraele, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Lucas

    Lucas Cupcake

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    I echo your feelings, Dyraele: for me, PvP is only the open world one of the sandbox MMOs (or RvR). Anything else feels to artificial and "gamey" to me, no matter how they set it up, so I prefer to skip it altogether.
  2. ImmortalExile

    ImmortalExile Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've done my share of BG's and whatnot, but I found that open world PvP was more exciting. It was irritating sometimes, too, but when playing in a world full of danger, knowing I could be attacked by a skilled opponent added flare.
    Akhrin and starspun like this.
  3. bamf

    bamf New Cupcake

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    I miss the open pvp of asheron's call darktide and daoc's mordred. I would really like to see at least one server dedicated for all out pvp for the people who enjoy it.
  4. Frozenoak

    Frozenoak Founding Member

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    I have never understood Instanced PvP. I get that it's an attempt to balance the two sides but it caters strongly to gear driven game play. In open world PvP you can call on buddies to come help and if everything goes your way then the world is your oyster. If not, well then, I guess it's theirs. This seems more natural to me. You may run into the random roving group or battlegroup that wipes you or your team in seconds but that could also happen if you or your hommies were hangin' out in Compton (the bad part of town in LA).

    Open world PvP can be segregated to certain areas of the map. Certain regions would always be yours, other regions will always be theirs, but there is that other region where anything can happen. Throw a focal point (like a Keep, or Dungeon, or Bartertown) in the "other" area and for a while it might be yours to use as you will, other times it might be theirs to use, and still other times you both might be fighting over it. This is where and when I want to be a Soldier. This is the PvP I live for. (throw in a third faction and it's all the more fun). I am a slave to my first MMO's style and I think most are but I could be wrong.

    I think a fun instanced us v them would be a ball game or something not gear/combat related. What do you say we get an 11 man team together and play some Madden style Football where every one has to play as part of a team. We could have practice / skirmishes twice to five times a week and have tournaments on the weekend. Or soccer, or polo, or basketball. That sounds more like something that should have a person cap to it.
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  5. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    As I said, if Carbine Studios elects to implement open world PvP, I'm outta here. It really is that simple.

    If so many of you who are open world PvP fans enjoyed games such as Asheron's Call and Dark Age of Camelot, why are you not still playing those games? If those games have died, ask yourself why?

    I have long contended that there is only a minimal market for open world PvP and that market is already well saturated. WoW has both roleplaying and PvP servers and that is one of the reasons they are so successful. People who do not enjoy PvP are simply not exposed to it. Period.

    Cooperative gameplay is a wonderful thing. I don't play console games because the static nature of the game is boring. I like an open, dynamic, PvP-free game world. This is one of the main reasons that after seven years I still enjoy City of Heroes.

    Seriously, if you want to permanently change your world through violent interactions with other people then why not just join the military and request assignment to a combat zone? If that constant tension is something you enjoy, then make it real and make a difference that truly counts. I spent four years in the U.S. Army. Fortunately, I did not have to serve time in a combat zone, but I was in a combat M.O.S. and I was certainly ready and willing to deploy if needed.

    I don't need that kind of stress from a game and I don't look for that kind of stress in a game. If your life needs more challenge, if you need more opportunities to make a real difference, then do something out in the real world where it really counts.

    Games are supposed to be a temporary escape from reality not an alternative to it.
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  6. bamf

    bamf New Cupcake

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    Games usually have their PVE servers. It's not as if anyone is saying to force people who don't like PVP to PVP. Posts like yours is what I don't understand. Why not play if they have a PVP server? I'm sure they will have PVE servers for people like you. And asking why we aren't playing AC or DAoC if that's what we like is just silly. Why aren't you still playing one of the older PVE games you liked? All games eventually get old and die.
  7. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

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    I understand what you are saying but like I said, WS already is going to have RvR. Are you not going to play because of that? It could be open world PvP in certain areas, it could be instanced, we just don't know (or at least I don't). I am just curious because we do not really know how it is going to be implemented. Also, I highly doubt they would have open world PvP and no other choice. I have not seen a game yet that didn't offer a PvE option. However, even the PvE options I played with multiple races have PvP in some form where you can be attacked by other players in areas of the map. That is open world PvP on a limited scale. WoW and DAoC were both that way.
  8. VooDoo

    VooDoo Cupcake-About-Town

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    unless an MMO is centralized on PvP, they typically have PvE servers. I cant think of any MMO's that are different than this.

    Games such as Aion, EvE, Warhammer Online have a main focus centralized on PvP and none of them offer a PvE only server because doing so would remove the heart of the game. Wildstar doesnt strike me as an Aion or a Warhammer otherwise most of what we would have been demoed or told about would have been its PvP.

    I cant say I fully expect to see PvP servers, but Im not expecting to see PvP be the central focus of this game like it is in Aion and Warhammer. I expect it to fall in line with say..Rift or World of Warcraft and you may see zones in the world that flag you for PvP, however I would expect these zones to be exclusively for PvP and instanced battlegrounds for PvE servers.

    then again, I could be completely wrong but that would really take me by surprise
  9. Autumnal

    Autumnal Cupcake-About-Town

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    Another thing to consider, since we're talking NCSoft, (and I almost hate to bring it up), is that PvP is often a "cheap"-and-easy way for publishers to promote Cash Shop sales.

    Yes, I know, we have no idea atm at how the pay model is structured, but putting my own fan-atacism aside, looking at it as a purely business proposition, PvP-capable consumables have always led the "hot" list in many a cash shop, wether they be temporary stat boosts, or "gulpable" mega potions with insane health reserves (like "you have used 4,920/50,000 'charges'). Sadly, this is not only relegated only F2P games, whereas the "Subscription PLUS 'optional' CS purchases" theory seems to be a growing company mindset.

    Sorry, not trying to de-rail the topic, simply adding another facet.

    Atm, flaggable PvP (with a substantial cooldown) is probably the most viable option. The important part is that there IS an option.

    We all want WildStar to succeed, and for that, the game needs longevity. Now, of course, in the beginning, there will be no shortage of us, but as the newness wears off, we will naturally lose players which will need to be replaced. There will always be the need for "the new player".

    I know most, if not all, of us have seen many a game die a slow death after becoming established, because some small percantage of the PvP population will find their "fun" in camping the "just left un-pvpable level" areas. (As an example "Level 30", is a popular cut-off between safety and "open PvP"). Without the option to "opt out", some 'bored', high-level "PvP Enthusiast(s)" will routinely camp that area, looking for "fun", (i.e. easy prey with little chance of retribution). Yes, we call them 'griefers'. We should actually consider them "Game Killers", because their 'fun' will disourage the "new players" from ever advancing, (or even trying), and thus cutting off the necessary "new blood" a game needs to thrive.

    Another option is the "min/max" level range envelope, so, for instance a Lvl 60 can't attack anything 7 levels below it (unless attacked first). If you're a daring "lower level" sure, you can take a swing at it, but you got nobody but yourself to blame when you get your posterior handed to you. This keeps the "Ubers" honest, and fighting among truly worthy opponents, and not camping the "fresh meat".

    I'm not "Anti-PvP", it's just not "my thing". I do believe there is a place for it, but in a game striving to "play our way", we're asking so very, very, much of a game given the eclectic nature of human "entertainment". Balance is the key.
    Brotoi likes this.
  10. Nonsensicles

    Nonsensicles Cupcake-About-Town

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    Brotoi, just to make sure, you're against every server being open to PvP everywhere at all times, not against the idea of any open world PvP areas/servers that are clearly demarcated from the pure PvE experience, right?

    Also, you might want to reconsider your wording slightly. You're coming across in a rather passive-aggressive manner, which is unfortunate because it undermines the point you're trying to make while risking inflaming those at the other end of the spectrum and alienating or guilt-tripping those in the middle. :\ Some consideration for the fact that everyone has their own definition of fun would also help.

    Using your service in the armed forces as a crutch for an argument about preferences in videogames is particularly disrespectful to everyone, military and civilian. You trivialise the hard work and sacrifice of the former by invoking it over something so petty, and you denigrate and devalue the contributions to society of the latter through your assumption of superiority. A soldier who serves for the very few right reasons is justly deserving of a great deal of praise, but a dedicated social worker, free clinic doctor or exceptional teacher is even more worthy. (And if you think there's not a lot of constant tension and fear of unpredictable violence in those jobs, you're very out of touch.)

    Also, not everyone who wants to affect a shared videogame world or blow off some steam in it wants to seriously harm or end the lives of real people. It's precisely because videogames aren't real that many are drawn to them to unburden their violent impulses that they would never wish to act upon otherwise. It's also something they can choose to engage in, or not, as it suits them, not something forced constantly.

    tl;dr - That was way over the top for an argument that appears to boil down to "Let me play without having to ever risk getting ganked." Especially since no one ever argued that PvE servers shouldn't exist (or if they did, they're clearly trolls).
    Foxentist, Frozenoak, Faelor and 2 others like this.
  11. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am still playing "an older PvE game" that I like: City of Heroes. Seven years and counting.

    Not every game "gets old and dies". Many games do, but not all of them. From my perspective it is important to understand why WoW commands such loyalty, why Auto Assault failed, why City of Heroes is still going strong, and why no matter how much content they add, Lineage II has remained more or less stable for the past four years with Asian servers carrying ten times the traffic of North American servers. The PvP vs. PvE question is a major component in all these situations. Not the only component, but still a major one.

    The exact nature of PvP in WildStar has not yet been revealed. Nothing has been confirmed. If they have separate PvE and PvP servers that will naturally be acceptable to me. I do feel it is important to make my voice heard as clearly as possible. If nothing else, as a contrast to all the pro-PvP voices that quickly fill up forums even though in many games PvP players make up a small percentage of the total fan base.

    RvR has not yet been confirmed. The only thing that has been confirmed is that several people on the development team are PvP fans and some of them enjoyed RvR style PvP in other games. If there is no server where PvP is not allowed or if my only choice is to avoid "battlegrounds" despite quest goals that continuously force me into them, then I will not be playing WildStar. If the only way to avoid PvP is for me to proactively seek out and restrict myself to PvE "zones", then I won't be playing.

    Dedicated PvE or non-PvP "roleplaying" servers is one solution I would find acceptable. Restricting PvP to specific instances that don't impact overall gameplay and don't make up a majority of the "endgame" content is also acceptable. One of the reasons I don't play Guild Wars, for example, is that once you explore the world and hit the level cap the only real endgame is PvP which bores me silly.

    Just like the PvP fans, I am waiting with bated breath to learn how WildStar will implement PvP, but for the opposite reason. Everything I have seen so far is very inspiring. I dread the thought that in order to enjoy it I'll have to keep one eye open for PvP sadists while I'm out exploring or even worse, once I work through the PvE content the only "endgame" left is PvP. So far, the promises of "depth" and an "ongoing storyline" are very exciting. At this point, unrestricted or overemphasized PvP is the only thing that will kill the game for me.

    Basically, I'm seriously hoping that most of the hopes of PvP fans being expressed here will prove false. Sorry, folks, but I'm entitled to my own hopes just as you're entitled to yours.
  12. starspun

    starspun Well-Known Cupcake

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    Considering Carbine's "play how you want" stance, it seems to me that servers with PvE and PvP rulesets are the most likely option. That way they don't have to ruin the hopes of people who don't care for PvP one bit, or the hopes of those who do.

    Brotoi is using a worst case scenario to make his point, which I think is rather silly when - as he also says - we don't know anything about how Carbine is going to play this part of the game out at all.

    I, for one, hope both sides get what they want - it's really the best way to attract more players to a game, in any case.
  13. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly! They will have to have PvP, naturally. All I'm saying is keep it where I never see it. Separate servers is one possibility. City of Heroes has a very workable solution, but that solution is completely dependent on the "every zone is an instance" structure of the game.

    "Passive-aggressive"? Me? Not hardly. Blunt and to the point is more my style. I know "everyone has their own definition of fun". All I'm saying is PvP is not my idea of fun. To my mind gankers and griefers are nothing more than sadists. The problem with any form of mixed PvP/PvE in the same zone or instance is the sadists quickly become more apparent than PvP players who enjoy strategy, tactics, and long-range planning. Competitive PvP players who enjoy contests between matched opponents are not the problem. Unfortunately, they are not the entirety of the PvP fanbase.

    My father is a retired cop. One of my aunts is a social worker in Oakland, California. As difficult and challenging as those jobs are, they do not compare with soldiers on a modern battlefield.

    Look back over the pro-PvP posts that have already appeared here. "We want PvP to have real meaning", "PvP needs to make a real difference in the world", and so on are already becoming commonplace. Personally, and this is only my personal opinion, I find such talk silly. I'm fifty years old. I've been a soldier, a teacher, an executive, a writer, and an entrepeneur. If someone seriously wants their life to have real meaning then they should not be playing games. If you want to make a difference then make a difference where it counts, out in the real world. Volunteer at a homeless shelter, work a soup kitchen, become a cop, become a teacher, do something real. Making a difference in a virtual world feels nice, but it's not real. It's pointless and nihilistic.


    Go back and read them again. There are numerous posts in this thread advocating open world PvP. There are several people here longing to run around with a beefed up Soldier slaughtering members of the opposing faction. That playstyle is destructive and without inviolable lines of demarcation, it will bleed into the lives of players like me who hate PvP. All I'm saying is restrict those players to their own little corner of the game world where they can pound on one another without ever crossing my path. I will not pay good money just to become fodder for a sadistic player. Period.

    Nothing passive-aggressive about that. Quite the opposite, actually.
  14. aspira

    aspira Founding Member

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    While PvP promoting cash shop sales is common in many games (especially f2p Asian MMOs) I would say that I think NCSoft are smart enough to know that having real money effect PvP outcome will annoy the majority of the playerbase.

    I played Aion for a long time, and the cash shop never impacted on gameplay at all. All that was ever sold in the cash shop was cosmetic items that people buy because they look cool (I admit I bought some stuff) but it never effected gameplay. I actually think NCSoft are actually pretty decent when it comes to micro-transactions, so I am not worried, but only time will tell I guess.
  15. Faelor

    Faelor New Cupcake

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    As much as I respect you and your family's contribution to society, I think we're getting a little off topic by bringing in real life roles and comparing them to... player versus player combat in a digital world.

    I think all of us understand what you're getting at, but there is disagreement. By bringing up such things it's blurring the lines this discussion once had, halting any progression this thread could be having.

    Let's continue, shall we?
  16. starspun

    starspun Well-Known Cupcake

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    Brotoi, bringing in the "if you want to make a difference, do it in real life" argument is hilarious and, quite frankly, stupid. Not a single person that has replied to this thread has said that they want to have PvP make a difference in the REAL world. They want it to make a difference in the IN-GAME world. There's a huge difference between the two, and telling them to sign up with the military and ask for combat zone assignment, or help out at a soup kitchen, or become a social worker, et cetera, is ridiculous. There's no connection between the two - and for all you know, people in this thread already are doing this, or similar things.

    Additionally, no one is advocating open-world PvP where it negatively impacts the gameplay of someone who doesn't want a part of it. Please don't make it seem like that's the stance people are taking.

    That said, let's turn this thread into something a bit more constructive than what it currently is.
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  17. bamf

    bamf New Cupcake

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    Well then AC and DAoC are not dead as they still have a fan base that plays. Considering you had said that AC and DAoC were dead I assumed you considered that any game without a large player base as dead. You come off as someone who thinks everyone should play the way you want to play with no other alternatives. As you say, nothing has been confirmed so why not make suggestions on how everyone can play the way they want instead of spouting off ? Such as PVP and PVE servers. The game is in early development and now would be the best time to make suggestions.
  18. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I guess I was unclear. My apologies. I do NOT expect everyone to play the way I do. I do expect PvP and PvE to never, ever cross paths. That can only lead to people like me jumping ship.
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  19. bamf

    bamf New Cupcake

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    /hugs!
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  20. Frozenoak

    Frozenoak Founding Member

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    Not to beat a dead horse but I was in the USMC, I was stationed in Iraq, I volunteer at my local animal shelter, I volunteer at a nursing home, and I still play DAoC. I still love the game and still play it but I give it up from time to time due to community issues. For nearly 5 years I was a member of a small but stable Guild which was a member of a larger but still stable Alliance. Then people started leaving and then they merged all the servers. Now my guild is gone and the alliance is drastically different. This makes it hard to immerse myself into the game world. If I were to find a guild I fit into I'd be back in the game full time. That's all I have to say on that subject and I'll not talk on it again here.

    In DAoC there are no quests in PvP zones that are not PvP related. No one is prevented from doing anything they have not volunteered to do of their own free will. They have even segregate people into level appropriate arenas using battlegrounds but it's still open world. On the test server we once had 3000 char's in the level 1-4 battleground all going at it with beginner gear.
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