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PvP gear status?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Villain1117, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Reason why I left this thread aswell. To me Carbines solution is one of the better (if not the best) option for this problem. It pleases the most amount of people and it's good for the game itself.

    I really wonder if there is a better solution at this time :confused:
  2. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    I know they say there will be crossover viability, but anytime you specialize gear, you're roping off content to some extent. I'm willing to bet that the higher raids will require, not recommend, a particular set of armor that people will have to collect and wear. As I said, rewards don't have to be stats on equipment. What about capturing warplot bosses? What about visually unique gear that shows how much of a badass you are that you killed a certain raid boss?

    I believe they could balance out endgame aspects enough to remove that path-of-least-least-resistance mentality. It makes it a moot point.


    Rewards don't have to be gear specialized for a narrow content path. With all the customization and tinkering with housing, gear, abilities, loadout, etc...there's a whole plethora of systems you can make rewards for. Why use such a tired and silly system that many people don't like and splits up your endgame content?

    Reasons why people want spec'd stats and multiple gear sets:
    "I don't want PvPers to be better than me, a PvEer."
    "I don't want PvEers to be better than me, a PvPer."

    So balance the gear.

    "It gives people rewards for engaging the content they enjoy." - Fair enough, but rewards need not be limited to stat'd gear. It also, as Xlugon pointed out, causes barriers between endgame types to some extent, at least.

    Since everyone seems to be tuckered out on this subject, I'll just say that I'm somewhat surprised/disappointed that they couldn't come up with something better than the system as it is stated and hope that it's not as much of an issue as what my intuition and experience with MMOs tells me it will be. I'll have to wait and play the game, first...but I do think it's a rare step in the wrong direction for carbine.
  3. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    If they aren't exclusive to some content, then they are all the same.

    As far as I know the PvE gear is supposed to be equivalent to 1 tier behind the PvP gear, and vice versa.
  4. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Outside of some resist fights care to give an example? Mechanics wise Rift comes the closes with its enforced hit, but in general its players who enforce gear, not the devs.

    Right now we do not know the value of the Warplot bosses. I will make the prediction that they are going to be underwhelming in reality though. After fighting and capturing them, they get depowered when added, meaning all those cool fancy moves won't be. On top of which I doubt they are going to get the cost right. From what has been said they will be a major chunk of your Warplot budget, and it is never a good thing to give most of your pvp play over to an AI. They will go with caution rather than make them op.

    As for gear, you would have a point if more players are peacocks. While you do need to appease them too, only 10% or so are actually motivated purely by looking better. This is why a purely "cosmetic" f2p model rarely works well. You need to appease those who want stats and impact on gameplay.

    What gives you such faith? No other studio has managed it, why would you believe that Carbine can?
  5. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    Only statistically the same, but what does that matter? The best available equipment is the best available equipment, you're just able to get it from different places. You have the added benefit of giving players equipment rewards as they advance tiers without giving them a disadvantage in other aspects of the endgame.

    Unfortunately, we don't know how much a tier is worth at the moment. Other games' tier discrepancy can be quite large.



    Honestly, I don't have the numbers to crunch right at hand. It's been a long time since I had to worry about gear sets. It's actually content design that enforces gear; a raid that wasn't properly geared in WoW was wasting their time and oftentimes that .5% of a certain value could really hurt you. I never played Rift, so I don't know about that.

    The warplot bosses were one suggestion and could turn out just as amazing as they could be terrible. I'm going on what information I've been given.

    All players are peacocks, don't fool yourself into thinking they aren't. I never said there shouldn't be stat progression in tiers of gear, all I said was that the gear need not be better than other gear of the same tier, but from other endgame parts of the endgame. Visual representations of achievements are a viable reward, so long as they're done right. In fact, I think it's a decent idea that has been barely tapped into by MMOs.

    I have faith because it's not a hard concept to grasp. It's not like they need a whole department of number crunchers to do it, they just have to pace how they introduce new content and gear into the game. In fact, it's a hell of a lot easier to balance simple stat gear than trying to compare the apples and oranges of specialized stat gear.
  6. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    They have said 8% between tiers.

    Which is why things like http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/718860-Raiding-in-blues-The-lt-Undergeared-gt-Chronicles were so successful right? Why top guilds usually cleared current tier wearing the majority of last tiers gear and not being bis? Being geared to the teeth is only needed if you are a mediocre player.

    Right, cause similar gameplay has not failed repeatedly in this genre right? For some reason you believe that gameplay from another genre is just as likely to succeed here when it plays on different drivers and expectations. Makes perfect sense.

    Have you ever stopped to think why it hasn't been tapped, especially in a genre as iterative as this one? Why do the vast majority of players wear what is better instead of what looks best? Because the vast majority of players are not peacocks.

    Cousins actually breaks it down pretty well here: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

    That is utterly false because different types of play come with different expectations. Pvpers do not generally go into pvp with the expectation of being a glass cannon, nor do pvers go into a raid with the expectation of being a survival expert. Gw2 gets away with all gear being the same because all of its classes are the same and there is no holy trinity. Tsw has all gear the same, and a holy trinity and every viable build is in essence a hybrid because to do anything else is foolish because of how heavy a dr they had to put on everything. On top of which its widely regarded as having some of the worst crafting ever. Is this really the model you want to follow? All because you don't want to feel like you have to farm to take part in everything? Do you not understand that content is supposed to be exclusive here?
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  7. SiddyFour

    SiddyFour Cupcake

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    ^ I think a lot of people would like to turn every new mmo into a cow-clicker.
  8. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    Fine, but that situation is not the norm in WoW. A hyper-drilled group who has consistently run those raids seven thousand times over many hours of gameplay can clear them with (arguably) non-epic stuff. That's not the situation the vast majority of players will be in, though. It IS the exception that proves my point, though; my whole argument is that success in raids or PvP or anything else should fall to some action on the part of the player, not on what special gear set they have.


    Different game with different developers. We see games do tried things right all the time. Unless we want to start distrusting EVERYTHING carbine says. They say tiers will be 8% discrepancy. Ostensibly, gear has some crossover with minimal consequences...


    The only place I've seen it implemented was in WAR, and it could have been cool if WAR hadn't fallen so flat. Don't make the mistake of thinking one bad implementation makes the whole idea useless. People spend real money on visual items all the time and WOULD be willing to work for those things so long as they have some value attached to them. Players ARE peacocks, they just don't look like peacocks when you do nothing but make them farm for gear so they can be at the level of everyone else. Although, this isn't really germane to my main point. It was more of an aside.



    That's why we have things like gear customization, skill scaling, loadouts, etc. We don't need an arbitrary gear set system that dichotomizes the endgame. That's just stupid. The only reason it was in WoW was because every class HAD to play one of three ways and didn't have the range of customization WS is boasting. GW1 had the holy trinity and was based around loadouts and weapon customization just like Wildstar is. Gear was gear and it worked fine. In fact, it's a fine example of how gear should be: all max level gear has base stats and let the players decide how they deck themselves out. Spend that new time and energy making neat visual models for different things and you wind up with a game that statistically stays balanced AND has a varied appeal. Imagine a game where two people could have two sets of armor and, get this... both sets are not just potentially viable, but potentially the best for the way the player plays. Players will still get their better gear fix from tier to tier in whatever they want to do, all I'm asking for is 1 to 1 transferability between the paths so people who want to do more than just PvP or raid can have the time to enjoy all the content. It does not hurt the game in ANY way and all it takes is proper planning.

    Content should only be exclusive by way of general level. A level 5 player shouldn't be in a level 50 dungeon. If I'm level 50 and I worked for the level 50 PvP gear, why should I need to farm two different games just to be on par in either?

    "Because that's how it's supposed to be" is not an answer, it's an opinion.
  9. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Because it works and because the other systems have been tried and failed. That's the answer.

    You can dance around with your fingers in your ears singing, it doesn't change the fact that so far there has been only one system that has held up and encouraged more activity in PvP and PvE while not damaging either meta game in the process.

    Visual perks only do not work. They are the cherry on top of the ice cream, remove the ice cream and you simply got a cherry. Lovely but not enough to make a whole lot of more effort.

    GW1 was not an mmo but an arpg, it had no consistent world and its greatest challenges lied in making builds to solo content.

    The player here gets the gear in the way he wants to play, making them the same forces players to take the path of least resistance as seen in so many mmo's before, it has failed time and time again, so it's you whos advocating a broken system. Not us.
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  10. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    What part of balancing endgame don't you understand? How can you say I'M not listening when you are consistently not listening to what I'm saying? All you're saying is "This has worked in another MMO, so it's good", but it was only a mediocre bandaid in that game; like trying to fix a dam leak with duck tape. It's a big and clunky and over-complicated way to do things. Everyone will bemoan that anything else will hurt the game in some nebulous way, but noone has given any sort of exact or rigorous reason. I submit this is because they see it worked in a completely different game (sorta) and

    Persistent worlds don't mean anything, we're talking about the practical application of stat'd equipment in endgame content, most of which will be instances (GASP! just like in GW1). It's blatantly false that all people did in GW was solo. I has builds for soloing, yes. I also had builds or PvP and group PvE and group PvP. We're going to see the same thing in WS.

    It's entirely possible to make the endgame paths not overtake each other, especially if they're going to do a system of tokens to trade for PvE gear like WoW did, then it's even CLOSER to a PvP gear system. All you have to do then is figure how much one is worth of the other. I would also add, without some balance, you're going to have people going the path of least resistance anyway.

    So, players still get their unique rewards that are statistically better than what they were using before, the only difference is it doesn't have a random ass stat on it that arbitrarily gives you a hand up in that path of the end game and puts you in a disadvantage if you want to do something else. The gear is comparable and tiered, so no one gets left out in the cold and someone can actually do the other content if they want. Add visual variance on top of that (because now you've resources to dedicate to the flavor of the game), and you got more than just a cherry, you've got a while goddamn sundae for people to dig in to.
  11. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    No it's not.

    Balancing endgame is an empty statement, you cannot balance jogging and swimming, they are two different practices. You can't balance it based on numbers because than again you're back into the path of least resistance issue, hurting one or the other part of the game.

    How about you actually come up with something concrete to give context to such statements rather than "companies can do it better but i'm clueless as to how, but yeah they are just fail because they can't and it's just a matter of effort"

    If i tell a person to do something better i know how it can be done better.

    Yes it does matter because you're doing things beyond just that, you're still going out and playing in the world with the equipment you're primarily active in, therefor a game where PvP is nothing more than a mini game attached to it is not a viable example.

    Ah the classic "it's all a matter of time and farming" argumentation, what is basically your token trade idea.
    A reward requires a specific challenge otherwise it's challenge is diminished. If you can get it through other means people will take the path of least resistance and one or the other part of the game will be damaged in it's reward structure.

    Also you cannot measure two different meta games, On top of that to keep PvP balanced the gear needs to be obtainable by some effort but not impossible to reach otherwise you have issues on your ladder ranking system and players are no longer motivated to play PvP due to it being impossible to catch up mid season or later.

    In raiding however, the challenges active during that tier have to remain the same as the catch up mechanic is part of the previous tier content not the current tier.

    That notion pretty much kills off the whole idea of trading tokens as they are the opposite in that regard of rewards. As the bosses remain static and don't improve while other players in the season do improve so you need to be able to catch up while in raids it doesn't.

    In before another post where you claim no reasons are given, while more reasons for the system have been given than your "it can be done better just because i feel it can, whilst ignore anything i don't like that is being said"

    Because if you did actually read what people have been saying an accusation you just threw around you know that you can use the gear to cross over in the other meta games they aren't optimal but they will be usable as they want some cross over, even a number was given by how much % difference.

    Second round on this merry-go-round so it's time for me to get off and so it's up to yourself to either believe in a flawed theory or go with what works and let your bias towards WoW itemisation go based on you being rejected by people in the game.
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  12. CRB_J-Tal

    CRB_J-Tal Carbine Studios

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    [​IMG]

    Balance.
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  13. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    man of so few words...
  14. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words.

    ..in this case several thousand inconsequential words
  15. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Stealing ma thunder!
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  16. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Apparently stealing our fruit too...

    Damn him!!!!
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  17. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    You can't balance jogging or swimming if you don't have control over what context they're done under. You CAN determine how much effort goes into swimming and how much goes into jogging and adjust distances accordingly. The dev team has exclusive control over ALL of that. Path of least resistance will happen, the question is of thresholds.

    Let me make my stance on this issue crystal clear; I don't think carbine has failed. I think the system they have will work, but it isn't as good as it could be. I think overall Carbine has made an interesting looking game and, while this system will be a constant thorn in my (and I'm willing to bet other's) side, it's not necessarily a deal breaker (as it's stated). So, drop the aggro, because you're putting words in others mouths.

    I've given a basic outline of how things could be designed better. If Carbine wants to let me in on the ground floor and see what they have, I'll be happy to take a shot at coming up with something better.

    If anything, I see PvP as being half of the endgame itself and far from just a mini game. The system they've given us a peek at looks like they've just split the endgame into three mini-games.

    It doesn't matter whether gear will be dropped off bosses or if it's token trading. You've once again proved my point: the token is just a representation of an achievement. People taking the path of least resistance will happen anyway unless some balance between equipment is maintained.

    This is what matchmaking is for; making sure people who only just hit max level and have nothing aren't going up against a full team of decked out players. There is already a system to even odds in PvP, which makes the PvP stats redundant and your point invalid....That is, unless you're talking about open world PvP, where people with the PvP gear and want to go on a gank spree will have a significant advantage over others who are, say fighting a world boss or doing whatever. Glaring issue right there. The fact is, you're going to have more overlap than you think in the three endgame paths, whether you want them to or not.

    You're saying that in building up to the current tier, people who want to raid will have to raid in order to raid. How does this conflict with what I'm proposing again? Is the fact that someone can come in with gear they got by working at PvP for as long as you've been raiding and be just as viable as you somehow game-breaking? Of course not. There is still the question of learning curves, which all endgame aspects will have. The disagreement we have here is whether or not endgame reward timelines can be comparable or not. I see no reason why they can't be.

    Refer to my last counter-points.

    Oh, you're SO internet savvy! How can I compete with such a strawman argument?

    And again, I think that's a step in the right direction from what WoW had, but it's still barking up the wrong tree. Will it work? Probably. Can it be done better? I believe so.


    Ouch, right in the social pride! Does this mean we aren't friends anymore, Acid?

    Again, I've said my peace and I'm willing to drop it if everyone else is as well.
  18. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Nope no social pride, it's just when you know you can copy and paste your previous reply and it still is relevant you're on a merry go round and this can continue for several more pages, making it pointless to continue.

    Because frankly you countered nothing and are talking around some of the points i've made, You explained your stance further but for me it's very simple, can't be balanced, can't compare them in terms of time and effort, hence rewards needs to remain flat out separated. To keep each reward/challenge structure in place with no way to bypass them and that PvP gear needs PvP stats as an mmorpg without a progression curve is simply an online lobby game.
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  19. nra

    nra Cupcake

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    R.I.P. thread
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  20. ratthing

    ratthing New Cupcake

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    I wish games would quit making PvE and PvP a separate game within a game. It isn't cohesive and isolates the community to different sectors of the virtual world.

    It would be cool if Carbine would add one contested zone in the open world for the dominion and exile to battle over. Place control on a timer. The winning faction gets exclusive access to a dungeon/raid within said zone for the duration of the timer.

    This concept would merge PvP and PvE together into cooperative play where both gear types are viable. PvP to PvE, a novel concept.

    Hope a Dev reads this. I know a lot of gamers would absolutely love this feature and it is completely optional.
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