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PvP gear status?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Villain1117, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    Whatever you gotta tell yourself.

    Actually, let's just agree to disagree. Neither of us has any control over what the devs do and I've made my point to the extent I can without more information.
  2. CRB_J-Tal

    CRB_J-Tal Carbine Studios

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    This, word for word, describes Wintergrasp, which wasn't effective at doing ... any of the things you said this would be effective at doing.
    Tiberius, Ragx, Kataryna and 7 others like this.
  3. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Too optimistic. You should know better.


    One thing people ought to consider is that sometimes having everything you want is an impossibility because everything is interrelated with everything else. To do one thing, you must give up or ignore something else. This applies very much so to the segregation of PvE and PvP gear and content that occurs in many MMOs. Developers have the challenge of trying to make both types of content coexist in the same game and to be as functional as possible within the same game. That's not easy, but doing this comes at a cost. In this case, it's separate gear sets. Nobody likes gathering up multiple sets of gear, but is it a price gamers will accept to have a balanced PvE and PvP experience? I think so.

    Consider for a moment what you don't know. What all goes into the development of games? Only the people who actively build these games know all of the intricate details. There may be inhibiting factors that you're unaware of. Couple that understanding with the fact that life is a mountain of give-and-takes, and you'll understand a lot more about how the world functions and why not all of our dreams can become reality.
  4. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Not to mention in the end nobody liked it and it caused a lot of players and guilds to faction transfer. No game pulled it of so it didn't feel forced or became unbalancing in terms of gameplay if one side fully dominated it.

    It's better to create a different competition between factions in its own part of the game. A race to the top of a tower and whoever faction team reaches it first gets access to an unique boss. All in PvE.
  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I might be misunderstanding, but Wintergrasp caused "a lot" of that? That seems like a huge inconvenience and real money cost for very little gain imo.
  6. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    On my server a lot of guilds went from Alliance to horde, pretty much the final drop on my argue if i was to be cynical it was their intention to force this all along.

    Financially it was a good choice because instead of fixing Wintergrasp or balancing it more they first introduced the brand new option to faction transfer much latter they started tweaking WG. The damage was already done, now calculate in that all the good racials are on horde, minus back in the day you still had humans (what is now nerfed into the ground as well for PvP)
    A progression based guild really could make use of easy access to WG at the start of the weekly reset and so forth.

    So for blizzard it was a gold mine. 25 euros per faction transfer.
  7. Gobby

    Gobby New Cupcake

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    100% Truth. I'd say most successful world pvp areas happened organically and were never designed to be such. Things like Elemental Plateau (where you had lots of people from both factions farming gold) and Isle of Quel'Danas (a daily quest island where both factions quested side by side). The pvp happened organically, Blizzard never intended either zones to be a world pvp zone.
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  8. Blue Tunic Man

    Blue Tunic Man Cupcake-About-Town

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    Woah, MMO devs playing other MMOs and using their experiences and applying it to that MMO. :eek:
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  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    novel concept, eh?
  10. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Path of least resistance is only one concern of unified gear, the other is the concern about forced grinding/participation, that I don't think you have addressed. In your system will you cap currency/tokens per week? What will be the cap? Will the cap be shared between PVP and PVE? Will there be a rating requirement for gear acquisition? How do you deal with/simulate boss drops and raid looting in a PVP environment?

    Hopefully by trying to answer some of these questions you start understanding the difficulty in having unified gear. If you don't cap it at all then you have a grind fet for every new tier, which is problematic for many reasons, so lets assume you are capping currency acquisition, but then you have to decide whether that cap will be shared or not. If you cap gear acquisition and it is shared, then you only have to participate in one, which lowers overall participation levels each week. This lowered participation is more problematic for PVP matchmaking, which ultimately makes the PVP experience worse. You also force people into choosing one role to gear for in both PVE and PVP, e.g. you can't decide to heal in PVE and dps in PVP, because you have to choose one to gear for initially. If the cap is not shared, then you require anyone who wants to be compettitve in either PVE or PVP to play both, whether they want to or not to keep up in gear.
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  11. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    I'm not sure you'll ever get away from grinding, unless Carbine is just doing something radically different with their system, in which case this all may by entirely a moot discussion anyway. We don't (or at least I don't) know the specifics about how Carbine is designing the loot acquisition system. We don't know if it's tokens or straight up boss drops for PvE. We don't know if it's honor-esque points or something else for PvP. At this point it's all speculation. Now, that said...

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Who is forcing a player do participate in what? Why would the cap be shared between two separate systems for acquiring gear? Obviously if you're going to cap one, you'd need to cap the other, but they wouldn't need to share a cap. Is the issue with someone who only wants to raid reaching their raiding cap, whereas someone who wants to PvP AND raid is acquiring gear faster, or vice versa? I can sort of see how that may be an issue, but I'm not sure how much can be done designing systems to balance out how many hours people have to play. This goes into my next point, which is...

    The whole point of the unified system is to balance time/effort and rewards across endgame. Let's say two players have 10 hours a week to play; one is grinding PvP AND Raiding for his gear and the other is only raiding. The first player is only going to have half the efficacy of acquiring gear in either PvP or raiding, whereas the second is going to be doubling the gains of the first in only raiding. In the end, the two still come out the same. Now, if one player has 20 hours a week to play and the other only has 10...as I said, I don't think there's any sort of balance that that really atone for that. A cap could give a bit of a buffer zone, but I don't think would fix that problem anyway. Which may or may not be a bad thing, I don't know.

    The big question is how to make time/effort discrepancies negligible between endgame content paths. This relies heavily on HOW Carbine is going to implement their systems for acquiring loot. I think it may be difficult to scale raid time/effort to PVP time/effort, simply because raids are each designed to be unique. It may be much easier to scale PvP to overall PvE, assuming they're going with an honor system for rewards, since this is more about tweaking values to match up time/effort with that of raiding.

    NOW, as for participation hits, the reason sane people play video games is because they're fun. Quite frankly, I don't care much about people who only care about gearscore and stats. Those people are slaves to their psychosis and no amount of system designing is going to change that. The reason people raid is because they think it's fun. The reason people PvP is because they think it's fun. To say that as soon as any sort of gear cap is hit, whether is acquisition or just having the best gear, everyone is just going to stop playing, is disingenuous. The content is what keeps people playing and gear score is only a means to that end.
  12. Michael Stevens

    Michael Stevens New Cupcake

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    Actually we don't, its the simple fact that people should earn gear for PvP just like they should earn gear for any other part of the game. This has been how PvP is done and the point of having PvP gear is so that in WPvP the true PvPers have an advantage because they spend the time getting the gear. Just like people have to earn gear to be able to do harder instances, or take down world bosses, sometimes, the fact is that people that put in the time and effort should get rewarded for doing it.

    As for the casual gamer simply make a bonus that can be gotten ever 12/24 hours so they don't need to put a whole bunch of time in to get the proper gear.

    So if you want you can have them take out the PvP gear but then I want them to take out the PvE gear so I can waltz into a 20 man raid and be geared, or pub a world boss with all gray items cause no one should have to earn gear.
  13. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    You don't see a serious issue with having gear that makes a group of max level characters magically better than another
    group of max level characters in world PvP? What makes you think any questing or world bosses are going to get done while roving gankers always have the upper hand? This
  14. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    If your whole guild can't handle a couple noobs ganking, then how were they going to kill the world boss in the first place? And if they don't like gankers, then they should have been on a PvE server.

    MMOs are like capitalism, as people expect reward for time investment. This is the backbone of the genre! Are either of them completely fair? No, not even close, but they are the least <REDACTED>ty systems currently developed, because they work with human nature, rather than against it.

    If you want total equality, then you need to look for another genre, such as Moba, RTS, FPS, etc...
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  15. Tonks

    Tonks Cupcake

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    Two things fundamentally wrong with this:

    1) You mistake world bosses for pve objectives when they are pvp ones.
    2) World pvp is inherently unbalanced. Implying that fairness should exist in such a setting considering the progression based nature of MMOs in general shows fundamental misunderstandings in thought process.

    Your definition of grind is also silly. If people are enjoying what they're doing, it's not a grind. The real solution is to try and separate both aspects of the game to a degree such that their progression paths are different, engaging and fun. Have some cross over with gear but not at the highest level.
    Afrotech and Livnthedream like this.
  16. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    A good world boss, not a loot a pinata, isn't PvP oriented.
    PvP might arise, but it certainly isn't the main focus.
  17. Tonks

    Tonks Cupcake

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    I'm not saying it can't have interesting pve mechanics. However, being in the open world on a pvp server automatically makes it a pvp objective unless killing it has no value.
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