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PvP players! What are you worried about?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by HappinessFactory, Oct 10, 2013.

  1. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    how does this happen if its ranked? doesn't ranked mean playing against other teams in your rank/bracket?
    and what would happen if the 3/8 guilds stopped instead of the 2/8, what says its guaranteed to be the 2/8 that stops participating.
  2. expendability

    expendability Cupcake

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    Well if you are going to have Pvp get Pvp balanced and base the pve enemies off that would be one way to do it.
    HappinessFactory likes this.
  3. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    I think the point Bnol is trying to make is that being at the bottom of a PvP ladder is more discouraging than not progressing in PvE content. There can be many reasons for this but I think the main one is that the majority of PvE players don't raid to compete. Compared to PvP which is competitive by nature.

    I think we've all seen games where the player base has diminished to the point that an Elo matchmaking system becomes pointless because there are not enough people at each skill level to make fair matches. However, I don't believe this is the result of discouraged players leaving the scene. Mostly because every PvP game has bottom tier players and even if they're not on top of the leaderboards PvP itself is fun enough for people to stick around (that's why I keep playing TF2 even though I suck at it lol).

    So if warplots is fun enough I think we should be okay on the population issue.
  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There are enough casual/semi-hardcore average to somewhat above average players that'll be into warplots. I suspect the bulk of warplot participants will be towards the bottom half of possible rankings and will be doing them for the sheer fun of it outside of competitive goals or to procure the best PvP gear which I've heard will be obtained through warplots.
  5. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    The 2/8 will stop first because they would be losing more often and would cap their available gear more quickly than the 3/8. They will likely be run worse, with less dedicated players. From what we know about Warplots, you will have to repair/rebuild so that additional time-sink will be harder to swallow when constantly losing and also not getting gear, because of rating requirements. This is why I think the bottom will fall out if gear is tied to rating in Warplots, especially with the 40-man organizational requirement. Edit: Additionally, with all other PVP games, those 40 people teams can be divided up into 8 5-person teams, which is a more resilient population as losing 5-10 people only costs you those 5-10 people in the matchmaking, instead of the potential to lose 40.
  6. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Ok so I didn't realize that if there are not enough players at a given rank, then the system will match you with a high ranked bracket, I just thought that you would sit in queue waiting.
  7. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    damn ok, so you can cap gear faster by losing than by winning?
  8. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    You are correct, that statement is not accurate, as it depends on the currency gains. If both currency and access are linked to rating, then you will cap your accessible gear at the same time as the 3/8. For the most part, on the low end you will be more capped because of access than currency, but that doesn't necessarily have to be done that way. This happens often because you do not start at a true 0 rating.
  9. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    All melee (minus Stalker obviously) vs. ranged fights will begin at distance. If Melee and Range both have CC, dodges, movement abilities, and interrupt armor and both are played at the same level then the ranged character will still have the distance advantage of the initial starting point. No, the ranged character will not just hold onto both dodge charges, because that is not efficient in terms of maximum movement capabilities because your dodge charges are not refreshing, but they can hold onto 1 as they are looking to avoid the gapcloser or the follow-up CC. The ranged character doesn't have to go 5/5 to do damage, but the melee needs to go 1/1.

    Obviously the balance is somewhere in between, but with an LAS, any additional gap-closers will reduce damage, CC or other utility. A warrior in WoW sacrifices nothing having both charge and intercept. A warrior in this game will have to sacrifice something, and it will have to do so because if it cannot get in range, it cannot utilize anything else on its bar. Where the ranged character has the entire arsenal available (as described much better by Xlugon above).
  10. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    but still in the end you are in favor of rewarding bad players, and the available rewards that they obtain just by being in their low ranked bracket is not enough, you feel that they should be given even higher rewards no matter if they are skilled enough to rise in ranking or not.

    Also the other question didn't get answered, if a [ 1600-1700 ] bracket team queue's up for a battle and there are no other players in that bracket to match, then the system will match them with an [ 1800-1900 ] bracket team?
  11. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I could see it go to a lower bracket at well. It'll depend on those nasty algorithms. :p
  12. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Ya I didn't know ranking systems worked this way, I don't have experience with rated Pvp matches, so I just figured that if there were no players in your bracket, you just came back later and tried again.
  13. Sera Serenity

    Sera Serenity Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, but the random warparties will not really be facing the premade warparties, so I suspect it is too soon to work out how the rewards will function. But you can imagine the big rewards go to the Earplot owner and ofc you get your own drops from killing players
  14. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    It depends on the goals, in terms of encouraging Warplot participation, I would utilize the gearing similar to the original TBC arena gearing in which enough participation over the entire season (content patch cycle) would allow you to gear (by the end of the season)about 75% in the best gear, with select pieces being rating locked (weapons/shoulders). The higher rated gear faster than the lower rated, and I would also have cosmetic bonuses for the ratings. But I know there are many that hate the welfare epics. I could also see a system of rating requirement decay on most items, with some items locked. Early in the season you are locked to a smaller amount of items, but later in the season the ratings requirements lower and you can purchase then, which would have less of an impact on raiding, but could push early participation down. Sure, you won't encourage a lot of competition at the low end, but you would keep participation.

    I personally would rather not have the best gear only come from Warplots, but rather make the rating requirement for gear much easier in Warplots than it is in arena, so that the player has the choice, whether they think they have a better chance of getting a 1500 Warplot rating or a 1700 arena rating, and would be fine making the difference excessive.

    In terms of whether they will have hard bracketing, we don't know, but it is unlikely. Likely you will be matched outside of bracket, but the length of delay in queue before doing so is a tricky balance.
  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Not really. The system for all intents and purposes needs to be non-zero sum, otherwise players will just take their ball and go home. There is a reason that pvp games with cash shops tend to drive much higher arpu, and higher gross daily revenue (even with significantly smaller player bases) than similar pve based games. Pvp players are effectively pay to smash, they are driven by not wanting to feel shame.

    This doesn't work. Its near impossible to balance, and even if it is balanced the great collective will funnel the majority of players into one path or the other purely through "this way is easier" bs. This is near impossible to change unless it becomes unbalanced in the opposite direction (devs trying to get more people to try the other path) or it gets shown irrefutably to enough people that it enters into the collective conscience. Case in point, I spent hours on forums and in fleet chat on Swtor trying to tell people to stop stacking Alacrity (effectively haste in WoW) because outside of 2 specs it was worthless, and even for those 2 specs it was pretty negligible. But the vast players coming from WoW, where haste has been king essentially since BC for many specs, and really atleast useful for many more, would not accept it. It took actually combat logs to get it through peoples heads that its a pretty atrocious stat.

    Perception is reality, atleast until you can show them what that reality actually is and even then it depends on if they are willing to accept it. No matter what people enjoy, they will do what pays off instead, which leads to burnout and generally unhappy players, which leads to no more money. Setting up different systems/games and putting different incentives in place and have them not compete is the only way for them not to influence each other in that way.
  16. Vermana

    Vermana Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just as ranged will have to sacrifice damage, utility, or CC for escape methods. Again gap-closing in WildStar isn't going to be so difficult like in WoW. You have sprint and dodges built into everyone, you have spammable attacks, and you have an aim requirement mainly put on ranged classes. Melee have to aim their CC in order to get up close and wreck. Ranged have to aim everything, while trying to move away. And backpedaling will obviously be slower than running. Strafing is not a direct path away from the melee and so the melee still has an easy time closing the distance. You cannot sprint while backpedaling, either, as far as I know, since that would just be silly.
    Unless Carbine make the mistake of adding exploits for ranged characters (like strafing backwards and jumping to attack, maintaining speed and momentum) it will be easier for melee to close the distance than it will be for ranged to escape, without sacrificing an LAS slot for an escape tool.
  17. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is far from ideal, just throwing out ideas of a reward system that encourages participation, while at the same time still gives tangible rewards to better players, while also reducing PVE impact. The second suggestion just delays purchases and choice of purchases until later in the season, unless you improve your rating.

    From what we know Warplots will have the best gear, so if you want the best PVP gear you have to do Warplots, whether you like it or not. Assuming that Warplot gear can be used anywhere, it has an impact on Arena and BGs. The current situation has the same problem of forcing people to do one thing, only it isn't community driven and there is no opportunity to buck the system.

    It would be interesting to see how separate BG, Arena, and Warplot gearing would work out, as we have yet to see that kind of gearing requirement in action.
  18. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you are hit while sprinting you will be slowed and locked out of sprinting for a short time, so it is a big gamble to use sprint as a gap closer.

    The key difference is that if a melee player is one gap closer short of a ranged players escape, then the melee will be able to output no damage compared to the ranged player, even if the ranged player misses most of his attacks.
  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    They have already stated that the best of current tier will be about as good as last tier in different fields of play. Assuming they hold to that and balance correctly no one will be gearing up in pvp to do pve. Attempting to force players to delay gratification is far to negative an impact for too many different player types. Especially when you consider that those who have that as a prime motivator tend to be on the higher side anyway unless they are completely new to the genre as a whole, which is not a demo being targeted.

    While thats true, Warplots are also the "main attraction" that sets them apart and atleast at launch is the obvious case of wanting to drive everyone toward. There are also a number of other nice things that Warplots fill too, such as fitting into the grand scheme of "large guilds that include everyone to be successful" and the rather obvious corollary between them and 40 man raids etc.

    They will never split it like that, its simply too much work, and honestly you don't really need to. The idea of worth the playerbase attaches to things is silly. Look at Bis lists for example. Very few players every actually achieve them, but they are used as gospel. There will always be fluctuations, but the general "good, better, best" that Carbine is using to differentiate between them is "good enough" to cover most of the gaps because those gaps are so small. Its rather rare that someone having some small amount of extra dps over the other person makes any real difference in a fight, and even when it does you are right back into the battle so quickly that it fades and is quickly forgotten. The truly bad beats that often get blamed on rng, outgearing and the like are often because you do not want to believe that you made a mistake for whatever reason.
  20. Vermana

    Vermana Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well that's why Melee have multiple gap closers, slows, and stuns. That's just standard mechanics for ALL MMORPGs with the holy trinity. If you're a melee and you're not packing enough CC to kill kiting mages/rangers/whatever, you're BAD and you should feel bad.

    I doubt any ranged class will have more than two escapes. It would just be imba to give a ranged class more than that. Melee however is definitely going to have at least a few gap closers, meaning leaps and pulls, as well as stuns, and slows, which will probably do damage too.
    You only need ONE offense skill on a melee, plus autoattacks/spam attacks, a defensive and utility skill, and an auxiliary damage. With WildStar having spammable attacks, you wont need to click "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" to do your rotation, just "1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3" or whatever, mixing in your CC and utility when you see fit.

    With that setup a melee class could have: Spam attack DPS, Burst damage resource burner, one "charge" gap closer, one other gap closer maybe a pull or a tether, one slow, one CC/stun, one defensive/healing ability, and one high-cost, high-cooldown power spell. (I believe it's 8 slots in the LAS, I don't remember.)

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