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Races being pigeon-holed into very few classes is starting to scare me

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Trigger, Jun 19, 2013.

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  1. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    I don't understand. Is that really a problem though? Aren't class and race animations independent of each other? You have class animations and then you have race animations. MMOs don't typically have unique class animations for the differing races.

    The only thing I can think of that may differ would be weapon animations.
  2. MrDreadful

    MrDreadful Creepy Cupcake

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    I had expected that, since the mechari would have access to the last two classes, if there were a healer class t would be more of a scifi field medic style of healing. Injections, probes, etc.
  3. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    well, they have to animate each class's spells for each race separately - 9foot robot animations won't work for 4 foot bunny chicks animations - their bodies aren't the same proportion or size etc. They're individually animating nearly every spell, so they all look different as well. so if there's 30 spells available they have to animate male and female versions of the spells for each race. (in other words there's not going to be one generic casting animation that's used repetitively for every spell no matter what class.)
  4. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Shouldn't you wait until all the races and classes are revealed before you panic about lack of race/class combos?
  5. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    With only six classes available, and a lack of panic by anyone (as opposed to a mild fear/disappointment), no. I don't see any reason to wait about commenting on it.

    If there were a huge selection of classes, sure, it wouldn't be that bad to have a couple of limitations. But with only six? It's ridiculous and unnecessary. There isn't a single race/class combination of the revealed options that aren't viable and believable -- aside from Carbine saying "no" simply because they feel compelled to keep that tired old trope of race/class limitations from D&D alive.
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  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Since when did rogues ever shoot missiles? You're pigeonholing stalker into the rogue archetype and not really imagining what type of "rogue" it is. If you wanted an Aurin Warrior, I'm guessing you wanted something that's kinda scrappy. That's the Stalker in tank spec pretty much. A swashbuckler type of rogue. One which specializes in combat, and not stealth. Think of a stalker as a pirate or a ninja, either loud obnoxious getting into drunken brawls and using misdirection and explosions to subdue opponents, or ninjas which are quiet quick and ambush-attack style. The pirate is kinda what I'd imagine an Aurin warrior to be anyway, but the claws fit more naturally than a giant sword that'd end up cutting off the tail when it's on their back.



    I personally like the race/class restrictions they have right now. It gives each race a culture and limitations. It also gives credence to the class's abilities being tied to certain skills. For instance, Esper is a class that uses psychic power of some sort to create illusions which cause damage to their opponents and help friends. Why would a Mechari be able to use Psychic powers? Why would they learn to do so? What makes a robot, which is already powerful in its own right need/want to develop something that's probably not possible?

    Likewise with Granok, being big and burly, why would they ever decide to pick up a pistol if a huge gun is sitting right beside it? It also means they have to develop skills which go against their natural tendencies and only a worse version because of it. This is because how would a Granok learn to be a Stalker or a Spellslinger? Their own culture would never teach them such things, so they'd have to go elsewhere to accomplish it. Even if they were to go elsewhere, they still wouldn't be good at it, think about a 250 lb. 6'5" bodybuilder attempting gymnastics or parkour or any number of other agility sports (professionally). It simply wouldn't make sense.

    The only way I could see a Granok being a stalker or a spellslinger is if they were penalized for doing so, something like % penalties with stealth and dodge and intelligence based things. Because if you're sticking to lore, that's what would happen if you put a Granok with a pair of claws up.

    And Aurins holding a 2H sword that's roughly the same size and weight as them would realistically mean they follow wherever the sword goes. That'd be fine by me if the sword's momentum took the Aurin with them, and if it was always getting stuck in the ground and such, since that's what makes sense... People can learn any form of combat these days, that doesn't mean they'll be as good if they had learned another martial art.

    Sure let players pick whatever race/class combination, but make it so they're gimped if they pick one that doesn't fit well. Of course then you get QQ over not being able to play an Esper Warrior as well as a Granok would be, so you might as well just limit it so players can't pick the "wrong" race/class combinations.

    If all races can be all classes, it makes players pick based on what they like the look of the best, instead of actually caring about the lore. I think class/race restrictions create depth to characters from the beginning. This also means that players which have the priority of Race over Class, will end up strengthening the race's community to be strengthened towards certain personality types, which makes the game feel more natural.
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  7. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    Is this something unique to Wildstar? I have never seen unique class animations in any MMO before. The animations for the various spells and attacks look the same no matter what race you are playing. Or are you saying that the animations look the same at a glance but they technically have to redo them over and over again for every race/class combination?

    No.
    If there is anything I have learned about MMOs and developers, it's better to impart player feedback as early as possible because there is a possibility that it can be changed. After a certain point, you can pretty much stop hoping that the developers will change something unless it's the loudest of the loud fanbase crying.

    There are also only 2 races and 2 classes left. If the speculated races are correct then I'm probably not interested in either of them....Of the two classes left, there's only one healer so I have to keep my fingers crossed that the race I want to be will even get to be able to be a healer.
  8. Volktar

    Volktar Cupcake

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    I dont care how this shakes down except for one thing.
    There better be a Granok healer...
  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    don't worry, there is. it's been confirmed that one of the last 2 classes is a healer and that granok can be both the last two.

    Same at a glance, they have to re-animate each race for it though - a female Aurin throwing her hands up will look different than a male Granok throwing his hands up - gotta re-animate for each spell. You'll know what class it is from what they're casting.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    For the most part, yes. Many other MMO's allow too many choices to be able to specify animations for every class/race. It would be a mixture of the two, in that every race will move slightly different, due to different measurements on their bodies. Look at a Draken, they're super hunched over, while Humans stand straight up. This means a Stalker's animation for Draken will be slightly different from a Human's. I think with the given limits on the race/class combinations, that they could make a separate attack styles from each ability for each race.

    This goes along with them having 1 weapon type for each class as well, so that each attack could be specialized better for the given race.

    I'd agree with this. Voicing concern is important, but if the developers think they have something that will fit your playstyle that hasn't been released yet, they should stick to their guns. I think you should be able to say you want Granoks to be Espers.

    That said, I think they should keep the race/class restrictions as is, I think it gives each race a lot of character, and makes being a human actually interesting, because they'll be really diverse, but the rest of the races interesting, due to their limitations. The one caveat is they back up the reasons with deep lore that makes it more like "Oh wow, that's really cool that there was a group of Granoks that decided to go off of the normal path and were exiled for practicing 'Esperism' and ended up never being heard from again." This could be the start of a quest line delving into what actually happened to those Granoks, maybe they went crazy because the rock they are made of conducts the psionic energies and "short circuited" their nerve endings which caused severe pain continuously whenever they touched something.

    I think if they build lore like that (which that's just an example of something that could make a really cool story as to why they have these limitations) it could enhance the races. If you ask pretty much anyone, what's the most boring super hero, it's going to come back as Superman. That's because he's able to do everything, super speed, heat vision, X-Ray Vision, invincibility, flight, super strength, blech... Really boring, up until you add in Kryptonite, then he gets a little interesting, but still fairly bland... On the other hand Spider-Man or Batman are much more interesting, because they have limitations to their powers, in that Spider-Man has reflexes and a little bit stronger than normal, but could be beat up by a strong regular human, and Batman is just a regular human that's super rich and super trained.

    Both their powers having limitations make them interesting, because you don't have to add arbitrary weaknesses that's completely contrived (yes, Kryptonite is contrived) to limit them.
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  11. Keeper of Ages

    Keeper of Ages New Cupcake

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    Hi everyone! I've been a "lurker" for about a couple months now since I discovered Wildstar, and figured I should join at last!

    I like to plan my race/class combinations months before mmos are released (I did this for Guild Wars 2, but my combinations changed drastically after I actually played the Betas and realized I favored some classes over others).

    I'm in the same boat as the OP regarding some race class limitations. My boyfriend definitely wants to play a Mechari Warrior, and back when we briefly played WoW he always tanked while I healed, as it made small 5 man dungeons easier when we could communicate well with one another, and we enjoyed our roles immensely. In GW2 he was a Warrior and I was a Guardian optimized for healing. This means my main will definitely be a Dominion race and a healer class. I favor more exotic races over humans, so I am avoiding Cassians, and from what I have seen have little interest in Chua.

    This leaves me with Mechari or Draken, both of which I am quite fond of. Mechari do not have a healing class available thus far, and Draken have only the Spellslinger.

    Contrary to the buzz around the forums, I believe it is the rifle class that is the healer and the staff that is tank, if the final classes have to fill one of these roles aside from dps. Here is my reasoning...

    The Wildstar Website lists attributes with their classes, each associated with dps, tank or healing.

    Warrior= Strength (DPS) Technology (Tank)
    Stalker= Dexterity (DPS) Technology (Tank)
    Spellslinger= Dexterity (DPS) Wisdom (Healing)
    Esper= Magic (DPS) Wisdom (Healing)

    Assuming that Technology is the Tanking attribute and Wisdom is the Healing attribute, the last classes will have those in combination with a DPS stat. Dexterity is used by both Stalkers and Spellslingers, with Strength and Magic only used by Warriors and Espers. Stamina was mentioned at one point, but I have not seen it brought up again.

    Based on all this is is likely that the last two classes will be the unused combinations-
    Magic (DPS) Technology (Tank)
    Strength (DPS) Wisdom (Healing)

    The last weapons are Crook/Staff (seen shooting electricity in gameplay) and the Rifle. Magic would make sense with the Staff, and enemies in the first revealed dungeon use electrified staves made as a conglomeration between technology and magic (matching the magic/tech attributes). I've never seen a mage type tank before, but with medium or heavy armor I could see how it would allow them to shrug off attacks while casting powerful spells (their spells look incredibly slow in footage). Rifle would be Strength/Wisdom, I could see it being similar to an Elixir Engineer in Guild Wars 2.

    So Trigger- Mechari will probably have the Rifle class, so they should be able to play the role of a healer! I think they would not restrict a race to only dps/tank. :)

    Sorry for the long post!
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  12. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    But literally the only reason for a class race restriction is lollore; How is it any different going from an old Ip where ubraki can't be dragon knights because they've been fighting the uurburuu for 10,000 years. To the Mechari can't be X class because it's space magic and they're robots.
    Sure the devs could hand wave it (and likely will if the game is successful enough to get old) but they've chosen not to it's really the same issue.

    It doesn't matter if its space razor disk things or daggers fan of knives is still fan of knives man. Reskinning an ability to fit space fantasy doesn't innately change what it does or how it's played.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Well if you're talking about playstyle, I didn't notice any combo points for the Stalker ever... I did notice them for the Esper. So... yeah... Again it's against the archetype playstyle too... The only thing it's got in common is a dual wield and the ability to stealth. If you're claiming that a reskin is the only thing they're doing, that's all a race is in the end... a skin. So, there should be no issues with race/class combination limitations at all, because you just want to play a class, by your logic it shouldn't matter how it looks.

    In fact, from what I've seen of Stalker combat, it looks like an AoE-fest that has a lot of little attacks with a couple ambush-like abilities thrown in there. Rogues typically have single target damage that they have to build on a target, which takes a long time to ramp up, and they usually have a big opener to help smooth out the beginning dps deficit. So, from stalker gameplay, I haven't seen anything similar to this really.

    In fact here you go, in this vid Stalker's resources are likened to spellslingers and warriors:


    So, while it is the most rogue-ish class currently, it's still not a true "rogue archetype." The feel is still different from the gameplay we've seen.

    First, welcome to the WSC community!

    Not sure where you're getting Espers using Strength? There's a stat called Moxie which is the Wildstar analogue of intelligence. The rest seems to be sound though.
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  14. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    My bad I was in a rush this morning I didn't get to edit my post to make my point more clear.

    Sure they don't have combo points, ESPers do (which makes them rogue/mage babies) I find a lot of the time that most of the 'new' classes in an mmo tend to blend aspects of two classes to produce a new one; great example the sith assassin/jedi shadow plays like a rogue/enhance shaman love child.

    That guy's wrong about how spell surges work btw. Now sure from what has been officially released we don't have much to go on so if I was going to make a point about how stalkers having more then a passing resemblance to rogues in terms of overall skill sets I would have to do it in a way that might be considered immoral by some so I won't I would heavily urge you to think about what I've implied though.

    Which isn't to say they're just a carbon copy of rogues from WoW or w/e they have their quirks and I'm sure they've got some pretty unique tanking and buff skills.
    But if someone unfamiliar with WS asked you to describe a stalker 'spacerogue' wouldn't be an inaccurate description.
    There was a dev post on the forums saying that dps stalkers might be using str as well now so who's using what primary stat might still be a bit up in the air. Also all classes uses stam because everyone needs health.

    As to the last two classes speculation would indicate that they're a 'medic' (dps, heals) and 'engineer' (tank/heals).
    The thing is I don't know how the whole staff/rifle thing is going to work though because the engineer might be all about tech and summoning pets which would seem they lean to the rifle but they're tanks although I guess 'ranged' tanking is a option.
    Which would leave 'medic' with the stalf but that just seems so generic...


    Of course that could just be carbine being master rusemen and dropping false clues.
  15. Keeper of Ages

    Keeper of Ages New Cupcake

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    Blindsear- Strength was for the Warrior and Magic was forthe Esper DPS stats on the Wildstar official site. Spellslinger and Stalker shared Dexterity, so that was why I thought Strength and Magic were DPS possibilities for the remaining two classes. :D

    Inv1cted- Yeah, I should have guessed they would be changing the attribute system, so if they are no longer using one stat for DPS and another for tank/healing then that conflicts with the combinations I mentioned prior.

    I was trying to reason a way Trigger could have a Mechari healer, and the Rifle class seems to be the last Mechari class. From what I have seen in footage from the game Staff wielders could very well be tank casters, as rare as they are in games, if only because they take so long to cast (and probably take more damage because of it) and much of their spells only influence the area immediately adjacent to them, like the snares I have seen.

    It would be unfortunate if the Mechari could not have a healing role, as every other race can heal and tank thus far. Having the Rifle a healer class and the Staff a tank class would ensure that the Mechari would not be relegated only to dps and tanking.
  16. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    They're still using different stats for dps and tanking/healing on the same class (str or tech) however what they are over all the classes would (if stalkers and warriors dps will both be using str or dex for one and str for the other etc).
  17. Volktar

    Volktar Cupcake

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    Theres some intimidation Granok over here with dark tinted sunclasses that would like to have a word with you...
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  18. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Another thing I believe that sets it apart from other games in the genre is I believe every single animation for each race + class combo is actually keyframed manually. This is why (I personally feel) it looks so darn good. Instead of just programming moves into a skeleton in programmed simulation type deal, they do it all carefully "by hand" so to speak.

    I think that was mentioned in a recent, article actually. Let me see if I can find it and post it here. :)

    EDIT: Here we go! Source
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  19. Rexx

    Rexx New Cupcake

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    Not many would have any issues with the robotic Mechari not getting Esper, or the massive Granok not getting Stalker. (Although it was fun playing a big ol' Troll Swashbuckler/stealth class at EQ2 release).

    A concern that I have would be the Drakken or the new Dominion small race (both will be popular), without the opportunity to play the Medic/staff wielding healing class (?rumor- which I hope is inaccurate). I am sure other people might have a similar race/class concern different from this one.

    From a roleplay standpoint, anything can be justified, but I am not appreciative of unnecessary race/class restrictions.
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    No one knows what the remaining two classes are (officially). So, it depends is the answer. The Drakken are pretty tribal in nature, so, whatever the Granok can use I'd imagine them to be able to as well. Also, you want the Drakken players to feel special, so giving players incentive to roll human will make the world feel more towards what the lore says. Mainly human, with these others as special and interesting races with smaller populations.
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