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Races being pigeon-holed into very few classes is starting to scare me

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Trigger, Jun 19, 2013.

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  1. Keeper of Ages

    Keeper of Ages New Cupcake

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    Haha, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I put Granok in with races that will have all available roles because they have been confirmed to have access to both of the final classes- meaning they will have one healer class! Whether it is the Rifle or the Staff is still up in the air. So even though you guys only have the Warrior now, you will probably be guaranteed a healer class.

    Rexx- Draken have been seen in multiple videos with Staff, there was even one from E3 in which the player character fights the ghosts of Draken warriors, and one was a Warrior, one was a Stalker, and the last was a Staff wielder! If anything I think the Spellslinger is an oddity in their society, as I have not seen any NPCs in videos with pistols. I'll probably be rolling a Draken Spellslinger unless they can heal with the Staff.

    There is an interesting table Yinello made in a thread about final race/class combinations. I have been using this to help me determine what I want to play. Ultimately we won't know until Wildstar makes its reveals, but it is sound speculation.

    http://wildstar-central.com/index.p...s-for-the-final-race-class-combinations.3727/

    Attached Files:

  2. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    You don't really need to give your players incentive to play humans. In Guild Wars 2, every race can be every class and humans still outnumber every other race by a huge margin. (Humans are over 50% while the other 4 races comprise the other half) No matter what most players are going to roll human. If that were the reasoning behind their choice, they're restricting players like me who hate playing humans (because I am one in real life).

    Selecting a race and class in this game to play at launch has been super hard so far. (Unless the 2 new classes change a lot) WoW could get away with it with its 9 classes (launch) and 8 races (launch). Wildstar will have 6 classes, 8 races and the difference in class availability between these games shows.

    This is all to say, looking past whether or not it is justified--I don't like it and I'm sure I am not the only one.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Actually selecting a class/race becomes easier, because you decide which class you want to play, and then based on that you only have to choose between 2 races, and if you don't like human, then you just have one selection. No thought put into it. It's about deciding what's a priority to you. How your character looks or how it plays.

    Making it so that you can pick every class/race gives no depth or meaning to a race, it then just becomes a skin of how you want to look. It doesn't speak at all how you interact with the world. Just because people want these things, doesn't mean they should be put in. In fact there's many occasions where the writers and lore creators know better why they shouldn't be allowed.

    Can you not find ANY class/race combination that you don't like?
  4. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    That's how -you- do things, how -you- select things. It's not how I, or everyone else, chooses to make their characters. Like for example, race is a bigger deal to me than just looks. How I play the game is completely different from you. (And while I think there is a lot of sense in how you pick your race/class, it's not how I pick mine)
    I play MMOs more for the social atmosphere, the story of the game, and the roleplay than being able to raid or pvp. The flavor and lore of my race is extremely important to me because it is also going to affect how I roleplay on a significant level. It is going to affect how I look and think of my character as an individual on a significant level.

    If I don't enjoy my race AND my class then there is going to be a major problem. So, yes, it really is that difficult. Part of my difficulty revolves around how I cannot stand how the females in this game were designed. They all have the same body type while the guys all differ from each other.

    But here are my opinions so far:

    Exiles:

    Human: Refuse to play. I do not play Humans in fantasy/sci-fi games if I can help it.
    Aurin: I have mixed feelings about them, a lot of it to do with how human they look. But, eh, I guess I could maybe play as one.
    Granok: This is usually the type of race I like to play, but the female Granoks don't look distinct enough from human females for me to want to play one.
    4th Race: I don't know about this one, from what I have seen about them, I am really skeptical I want to play as one. But maybe?

    Dominion:

    Cassians: Humans of the Dominion, so nope.
    Draken: I really don't like their lore that much or the sexual dimorphism. Haven't written this one off entirely but heavily leaning towards no.
    Mechari: Never played a robot-person in an MMO before. It would be an entirely new experience and I enjoy speculating what they can do.
    4th Race: If it's a small race then an automatic 'no'.

    For classes, I'm not interested in Warrior or Stalker. Spellslinger is what I am most interested at this point. Didn't know Espers use combo points. (Dislike combo points personally)
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    If a race is about much more than just looks for you, then you should want the restrictions, it builds a personality and character to the race...

    So, it sounds like you should just pick a race, then play whatever class fits your general role (be it healer or tank or dps) then based on that you play it how you want. It sounds like optimization isn't a priority for you, which is fine. So... again don't see a reason there should be an issue unless you wanna be able to play whatever class and race and perfectly optimized role, then you start having issues with breaking the lore just for your character, that's similarly not fair to the 100,000+ other people around you that say "Wait a tick... that Aurin's a Warrior... How are they even wielding that massive sword that's twice their size, let alone swinging it?"

    That's completely selfish if you want to break the lore for everyone else to quell a few...

    Then stop worrying about optimization. You can play an Aurin Stalker and never use stealth. Now you're a warrior, congrats!

    Stalkers don't use combo points btw. I'm guessing you don't like melee classes, if that's the case there's probably a ranged class remaining, so... what if you can be a Granok that class? In fact I know you can be a Granok that class, because Granoks can be both of the remaining classes.

    First, you only want to play a Spellslinger, so you don't even know what the last 2 classes are, so what if you love one of them? You know the Granok is going to be able to play both of them. If you only want to play a spellslinger and no other classes, then that's your choice. Also, you haven't completely written off Draken.

    Basically it sounds like you just want to play the game you want to play without any thought of how it interacts with the game Carbine developed. I personally hate it when I'm given a class/race selection, and I can choose any class or race. It makes me not care about the race at all, and distances me from my character. I enjoy playing the game for the story as well, but I will choose class first, then be happy to enjoy the game as whatever races I'm left with. I usually never play a human, I've only rolled a human once and hated it, but I think in Wildstar I'm going to, because I think the feel of the game gives them a unique position.

    It sounds like if you want a race that can play absolutely any class you want it able to play, you're just not happy with the choice given. Maybe be a bit more open minded and see what you like about each race and class, instead of coming to conclusions before you've even played the game. I think they've given a decent enough diversity of race/class combinations and the ones they have in place fit the races very well, possibly with the exception of a spellslinger Mechari, but that's dependent upon how the lore is for Spellslingers really.

    What if you get into the game and you just hate spellslinger? Then it's all for naught.
  6. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    I just don't like class/race restrictions. In any game. I know you like them and think they strengthen the lore of the game, but I don't. I try to imagine how Guild Wars 2 would play with race/class restrictions. I play a charr ranger. But what if I couldn't play that? The charr are technologically advanced who favor classes like warrior, engineer, and thief. If Guild Wars 2 had WS-style restrictions I can imagine not being able to make a charr ranger because charr don't revere nature or unable to play Guardian because charr guardians are very rare lore wise. (Another one of my favorite classes from that game)

    I also compare it to DnD 4 which I have just gotten into within the past year. What if I couldn't play an Ardent Githzerai because Githzerai are super serious and wouldn't be capable enough to control emotions? That would be sad to me.

    These kinds of race/class combinations are unlikely but as a roleplayer I am able to add nuances that make the class fit the race and character I play--and it's a lot of fun doing so. (Aside from just being eccentric or 'different')

    Being able to pick any class you want with any race allows people to play what they want which is what I believe this game is touting. You should be able to play what you want right? For example, from GW2, charr mistrust magic. So if you think it would make more sense to have a charr who doesn't use magic then you are free not to roll that while others are.

    But I'm not really hung up on being spellslinger particularly, and more that I feel the race/class restrictions are too tight. I honestly don't know what I am going to end up enjoying--only that I prefer being able to heal. But if I end up figuring out what class I favor at some point and it's not able to be played by the race I want to be--then that is seriously discouraging and affects my personal enjoyment of the game.

    I find it worth discussing similar to how others discuss 40 man raiding and their worries for it.
  7. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Would you do things like if you were a Granok Spellslinger, that you got your fingers stuck in your pistols and they'd just autoshoot until you ran out of ammo or winded yourself? Or if you were an Aurin warrior that would end up getting his/her sword stuck in the ground because it's too big for their own good?

    Also, what's a strong reason for a Granok, which is big heavy and slow being any good at a class which is dexterity based? Also, why does this Granok pick up two puny pistols as opposed to a giant gun? Or a giant sword? Who trained him and didn't just say "OMG please just go away and learn to use a Sword like a normal Granok, you're never going to make it as a Spellslinger."

    Sure, make endless race/class combinations, but there should be punishments for doing so. If you decide you want to do something counter to the lore for role-play reasons, fine, but make it so you're gimped, so that it fits in with the overall world.

    Certain species simply aren't physically capable of doing things. Granoks should not be Espers because:

    "Rare individuals that display unusual mental fortitude, Espers must undergo rigorous training in order to harness the turbulent, chaotic energies of the mind" Official Esper Description
    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/the-game/classes/esper.php

    This is because this simply doesn't fit with a Granok. They are described as having "more boulders than brains" which means they wouldn't be a "Rare individual that displays unusual mental fortitude". So, yes there's reasons these things wouldn't happen.

    But it detracts from the other's gameplay, it would be if Charr were physically incapable of using magic, but then all of the sudden there's a Charr that comes in blasting fireballs. You would then ruin the immersion of the other people who care about the story and lore of the world that's created, not the one they've imagined. It'd be similar to going along the street and seeing a 300 lb fat guy doing a flip from flatfooted stance. Sure, it could happen, and they could do it, but what would cause him to learn to do that and do that?

    Why not impose the personality of a race you aren't onto another race, something like taking the Granok's general big bad attitude to a human? Then you have an interesting human instead of a lore breaking otherwise uninteresting Granok? It comes down to looks at that point. You just have a thing against humans so you're refusing to play them. That's an aesthetic thing.

    But again, if you argue all this time then they water down all the races to have no character anymore so you can superimpose your own thoughts of what they should be, then you end up just liking one of the race/class combos that they were going to make anyway. You have just argued it into a grey mush for no reason at all. I think taking the restrictions away does this entirely. It basically says "Oh yeah all that lore behind BOTH the races and classes, yeah that doesn't really matter, because you can just do whatever you want anyway. Take the mechanics that you like, that's your class, and take the skin that you like, that's your race." Because that's what it boils them down to without restrictions. On the other hand if you see "Oh, wait what? Mechari can't be Spellslingers? Why's that?" then you have to go to the game and forums and websites and books and learn why it is and find out something interesting about the world they've created.

    It basically comes down to, do you want to enjoy the world that Carbine's created, or do you want to create your own lore? I understand this is important for role players, but that doesn't mean the rest of the population doesn't want that lore there. Many players enjoy learning about the game and the lore of the game when they're playing, and they don't want to have to create their own story, but they do want to enjoy the story that someone else has created for them. It's like enjoying art, you should enjoy the art the way it is, how the artist created it, if you like it cool, if not, cool. I think it's unfair for those that want them to stay as is to change them, and you want them so they're completely open. I think if they find a lot of complaints of a certain race/class combination to be added in, they should add it in assuming they haven't built the lore to disallow it, worry about it then. I think it's too early to insist they change it yet.

    This is exacerbated by your uncertainty, in that you aren't sure if you will or won't like the given class/race combinations, while I'm absolutely certain I love the race/class restrictions they've put in place. I think what they've chosen makes complete sense, and I do NOT want to see a granok doing a flip or a cartwheel during combat, but I expect to see humans and Aurins to do that. I would probably laugh at first when I see a Granok pulling off the crazy acrobatic moves a spellslinger's supposed to do, but the 2nd time I see them flipping or whatever I'll be sorely disappointed...
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  8. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    The game advertises that I should be able to play the way I want to. If I want to be a raider, I can raid. If I want to do stuff on my own, I can. If I prefer social interaction to killing things, then there is a playstyle for that. So then why do I have to be forced into certain races to be able to play the class that I want to play?

    This is a brand new IP, they can create lore to appeal to everyone being able to be a certain class. It is not like the lore pre-existed that way. It would be just as lore friendly to make everyone be everything than to have limitations.

    It is worth pointing out that your previous post focused a lot on explaining why Granok can't be certain things, a few dealing with their great size. But then how does that factor in the female Granok? The female Granok who is lithe, with stick arms, and much, much smaller than the male counterpart?
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I'm not saying that you can't I'm asking for a good lore reason why they should. Other than simply to appease the "majority of roleplayers."

    I don't think that's "lore friendly," I think it's "roleplayer friendly" but hurts the overall lore of the world.

    So, you're saying the female Granok should be able to play the classes but the male should not? Meh, ok I'm fine with that. But basically, the women Granok are still huge, and dumb, so Esper's out, and I'd like to see the granok female do a flip too. Equally unlikely, they're like 2 ton rock people. I can't find a good picture of a Granok female which shows her scale compared to another race or a Granok male. She doesn't look very spry though. She looks like once she's started running she could go together but she'd be too top heavy to quickly change direction.

    I also gave Aurins swinging a sword twice their size, this would just be unreasonable. Go pick up something that ways 100-200 lbs (whatever your body weight is) that's as tall as you are, and swing it around, see how long it is before you drop it on your foot and break your foot or throw out your back. You could simply just make the sword smaller, this means you have to give a reason why their sword does just as much damage as the Granok's which is twice the size. I mean yeah there's going to be some difference in the size of the human compared to the Granok, but it's not nearly the same as the Aurin compared to the Granok.

    Mechari can't be Spellslingers supposedly because they can't use the magic it takes to use the pistols, if Mechari were able to wield pistols but not able to do the teleporting and all the sigils the spellslinger can, that's fine with me. But it means you're gimping yourself in gameplay for enhancing the lore. They also don't have a mind, so no mental energies with which to do Esper. It simply can't be done because they don't have a mind.

    Draken can't be Espers because they're primal and instinctive and wouldn't be good at thinking necessarily, but they're good at agility and strength, they're a warrior race which usually goes with honor, which usually tends to value strength, stamina, and agility moreso than things like intelligence, so they're culturally trained to not be an Esper. That makes the whole race more interesting because they choose to overcome their weaknesses of not being an Esper by being amazing warriors.
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  10. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I would not classify this as a role player issue. I think it's a player / choice issue.
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  11. Nhtst_Sev

    Nhtst_Sev New Cupcake

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    Lotta words in this thread.. I'm used to racial restrictions in games, and after playing FFXI I'm glad for them. An outright restriction is much better than restrictions placed on race/class combos by the community. The restriction is especially welcomed when you can only play as one class, because if the community decided that Granok Espers were useless due to racial stat divisions, some players would have a hard time of things based on their aesthetic choices.

    This is Carbine's way of protecting their story, but also protecting players.
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  12. Zwipe

    Zwipe Cupcake

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    Races stand out less when they can do everything. Makes them feel generic.
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  13. Hawk Sungrifter

    Hawk Sungrifter New Cupcake

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    This is how they created it, because this is the story they wanted to make. Don't like it? Don't play it.

    This also plagues the real world and you can't re-roll that.
  14. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd not put it exactly like that but it's a good point.

    The only reason to have race/class restriction is lore (or in the past faction balance but we've proved that doesn't work). There's no difference from an established ip saying race X can't be class Y because of lore and wildstar doing so.
    Sure Carbine could have written the lore that way but they didn't so its no more valid suggesting they change their lore then saying it to an established ip.
    Also getting into the whole lore debate is setting ourselves up for failure because it goes like;
    'why can't X be Y'
    'Because Carbine said that X can't be Y'
    'Well can't they just hand wave it so I can be right?'
    'Well sure but thy don't really have a reason to'
    'I still think they should'
    ad infinitum

    (Like it matters anyway, they will inevitably loosen the restrictions when expacks come out and then come up with the requisite contrived handwave anyway).
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  15. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    That is ridiculous. Why would I go to a different game because I dislike something? It's alright for people to complain about 40 man raiding without other people telling them to go to a different game but it's not alright for me to say I don't like class/race restrictions?

    Every MMO will have something you don't like but that doesn't mean you instantly leave over it. That's what I call 'MMO hopping' or being 'fickle'. Generally, players state what they feel on certain decisions and if they are loud enough, then the developer might listen.

    So, yeah, player feedback is important. Instead of dismissing me by saying "This is Carbine's game" you should consider that maybe the reason why I posted this is to A. Get some more info on mechari and the classes and B. To see if anyone else feels the same way because if they do, MMOs are hardly ever static and Carbine can make changes to it if they want to.
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  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Thanks for the perspective Rumze, the way Trigger's making it out makes it seem to be a roleplayer's problem, as I couldn't understand it from a non-roleplay perspective.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    You do kinda make it out like you won't enjoy the game if they don't give you exactly the race/class combination you want... Also, plenty of people who QQ about 40 man raiding have been told to go to a different game.

    But I don't want them to listen to you... I think how they've done it is amazing and builds character within the game...

    This is barely feedback, because:

    A. You haven't played the game, so you don't even know which classes you're going to like

    B. You don't know what all the race/class combos are going to be, they haven't finalized them, not have the released all the races or classes.

    I agree that you should voice your concern, but saying "anything other than total freedom of race/class combinations is unacceptable" is a bit of an ultimatum. There's no room for compromise. Choose one race/class that you'd really like to see that would really make the game for you and stick with that, don't insist on all of them, because let's face it, you're not going to play all of them.
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  18. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    It may not have pre-existed, but it certainly exists now. I don't know about others, but I prefer it if Carbine doesn't pull a Microsoft 180. Also, they obviously made the game the way THEY wanted to. This isn't a game breaking issue, and asking them to fix what clearly isn't broken specifically to cater to you is selfish. No offense.

    Don't get me wrong, I do know where you are coming from. But racials and race specific things add a lot to the game and make your decisions more important. Your name is Trigger, you're a female and your avatar is Toph so I think you must be a pretty cool person, but asking Carbine to cater to you when (as others have said) you haven't even truly made up your mind is a little silly, no? Especially when your reasoning for not wanting to be 2 of the races is that they look a tad like humans even though they are fundamentally different in looks, lore, and traits.
    Which is fine! Except your posts show that you are trying to debate the case of "racial classes = bad" and no one else here thinks that. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind a few more options for certain races, but you sound as if you want the system to fundamentally change and that puts people on the defensive. Your OP asks someone to reassure you, well, I'm almost positive that every race will be able to preform all 3 roles. If they didn't have the option for Mechari to be healers then a lot of people would be upset (Even people that weren't planning on rolling one) so it is very likely that the Mechari will be able to be "Medics". And if you want more information on some things then feel free to ask anything specific and I will do my best to fill you in!
  19. Hawk Sungrifter

    Hawk Sungrifter New Cupcake

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    Don't worry, I say the same thing to people who have issues that revolve around raiding as well (the it shouldn't be 40 man ones).

    The way you speak about it makes the reader believe if they don't make one of the next two class/race choices you want them to, that you will not play it because it's not how you want to play it.
  20. Auxiliary

    Auxiliary Cupcake

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    I personally want to play a female mechari esper, but I can't. So I will most likely end up making a female aurin esper because of it or a female mechari [redacted].

    The racial restriction on classes is not necessary at all. I could restate previously mentioned reasons, but several other posters did an excellent job of explaining why racial restrictions are not really suited to the current era of MMO's. Wildstar being a new IP has plenty of ways to work around 'lore' which we have VERY LITTLE off in the first place.

    There is nothing in the current lore which truly explains the restriction.
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