Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Steampunkette, Jun 23, 2013.
To me it seems a slight bit more opinionated now. Unless the land rights laws were specifically put forth for Nexus and/or the rest of the WildStar Universe, it's more or less how you personally view land rights should be.
Or maybe not, maybe Carbine implied or mentioned this.
Getting real deep for a moment, rofl:
When I try really hard to look at this from a completely external pov, I start to believe there shouldn't be "land rights". Why should any one person have rights over land? As far as Earth goes, all things living are cousins. Where's the cut off? Why should intelligent life only get rights to land? And the Earth was here long before we decided to kill each other over land disputes. Seems more of a moral (for lack of a better word) issue.
Sorry for that last part, but I just listened/watched "Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot" video on Youtube.
The most poetic deep thing I've ever heard in my life.
Its a very interesting debate.
It really paints both factions in a grey light which is perfect.
Sorry, you can't use Nazis as a term in the Exile POV
To help you out a bit. http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/13/e3-2013-wildstar-press-briefing-and-qanda-with-jeremy-gaffney/
"One final note about the interview, one for which I'm issuing a spoiler warning for lore people just in case: Something bad happened to the Eldan. They didn't just disappear, and the thing that got them is coming for the players."
I see your deepness and raise you this: stratification and hierarchy are intrinsic aspects of the natural order. Regardless of animistic or monistic views on the nature of conciousness, life feeds on life. A plant robs nutrients from the soil, an herbivore eats the plant, a carnivore eats the herbivore.
So goes the perennial dictum of every conquering power throughout history: might makes right.
From an absolutely objective viewpoint nothing exists. We are all just a collection of molecules and energy consuming other molecules and energy to perpetuate the reactions that allow us to maintain a cohesive form until such time as that cohesive form ceases to be at which time we dissipate. Though, really, it's debated that the discrete grouping of molecules we considered to be "Ourselves" even existed in the churning sea of molecules we walk through on a daily basis.
As for land rights. I dunno. All life requires space to live, food to eat, air to breathe, and water to drink. Without those things we die. At what point does my right to those things trump the right of a fruit to not be eaten, or a Rowdowser not to be killed for meat and fur? In that sense all life is predatory, because even plants battle over their resources of minerals and sunlight.
And it becomes a question of priority after that point. And the priority is, of course, subjective. A Goat thinks it has more right to live than I have a right to eat it to perpetuate my own life. This is why it flees from me when I chase it. It's also why onions and other plants give off fumes that damage or annoy us, to keep us from consuming them. Once you've established a hierarchy of Priority, to which any given life form will attribute itself the highest position on, you've got a moral obligation to maintain that hierarchy.
Whether that is killing threatening animals, claiming territory for other similar life forms to settle, or otherwise. Once you get into issues of Ethnic or Racial divide, even cultural or social divide within a given society, you'll find the same priority rearing it's head. And that's why people own land: Because they are more important to themselves than other people or animals or plants who might also want that land. It's also the basis for ownership of non-real estate items, such as tools or clothing.
... You posted everything I was trying to say far more concisely and quickly than I did.
We are now foes! *playful glower*
I don't know if I agree, half because I had to look up half the words you just used on Google, and the other half because I can't tell if you are comparing the food chain to stratification (a word I just discovered) and social hierarchy. Survival of the fittest, sure, though I'm having a hard time believing natural selection applies to self-aware beings.
@Apostate nevermind, if you were trying to say what Steampunkette said, then below applies to you too
God you are awesome. I didn't even think of it that way. Genius and poetic. That first paragraph is sadly, exactly how I view the world. Albeit, I never thought of it quite like that before. I love Nihilism.
Meanwhile, your wordier and more comprehensive breakdown was the one to actually prove helpful to someone.
Haha I sat back and read, because folks here are responding rather fast. To a degree, the topic also drifted away from WildStar.
In WildStar, we have this anomaly called "magic", which says bugger off to your philosophies
Rofl, yours would have helped me if I didn't have such a lacking vocabulary. Take that as a compliment, lol.
^^, I guess so! Though, the off-topic portions of this thread really did help me solidify/mold my preexisting belief system. I'm glad this thread exists.
Well... Magic itself is just another part of the natural order of the universe. As absolute and true as gravity, and just about as well understood!
In any reality that has magic, such magic has it's own rules and laws. What it can and cannot do. Whether it's limitations are creating something from nothing, such as in the Belgariad, or the inability to restore true life to the dead, as in most every magically related story in the history of ever. Such rules and laws are very poorly understood by most people within the canon, but they exist nonetheless.
Any manipulation of magic within the universe is therefore just an extension of the use of any other natural physical force, and must be bound within the laws of that reality. If a spell allows someone to move faster than the speed of light then light within that universe is not, intrinsically, the fastest moving particle: Magically propelled particles are. That doesn't break the laws of physics for the universe, it just redefines them from our perspective. And use of magic is no more a "Cheat" of the laws of reality than using a lever to maximize force or a slope to add gravity to motion is cheating physics.
Social law, on the other hand, is subjective with or without magic. And as philosophy is an extension of social consciousness, awareness, and construct magic cannot negate it, except by literally rewriting individual thought processes across a cultural or societal band, but instead is a defining portion of it.
With that said, I hadn't really thought of that. And may have to re-evaluate some of my understanding of the various races and the two factions. Though I think it's -relatively- safe to say that I won't change my opinions on social interactions too much based upon this insight. It is good insight, though!
Ok so since you beat this "blood right" thing to death lets give you the benefit of the doubt, the dominion have blood rights to nexus. But this would bring the assumption that the dominion valued "blood rights" and respected them. Like they respected the aurin and granok rights to their own planet? Oh wait, they kind of didn't care.. humans didn't want to live under the heavy hand of the luminai so they left, this makes them criminals? They stole a ship to escape, but left none the less. Aurin offered them refuge and this gives them rights to try seek and destroy the humans on their planet while driving the aurin off?
Granok had their own way to live and chose not to join the dominion, as they do with their heavy handed tactics the dominion didn't care and persued it by driving the granok off their home lamd, despite the granok blood rights.. the exiles finally have force enough to stand up to the dominion if they try push them off another planet, and decide to use the eldan tech to assist them since they found nexus.
But because it suits the dominion "blood rights" is now reason enough to lay claim to something even though they had no respect for the blood rights of the granok or aurin.
So we are back to dominion being run by inbreds, Hipocritical inbreds who want to claim the rights to a planet because of ONE guy who was never the owner of it in the first place.
OK back to the less objective (probably using that word wrong), less nihilistic point of view:
I feel like I have to agree pretty much. It seems if there is a law of "blood rights", the Dominion sure wasn't following it before. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right. I'm saying the fact the Dominion wasn't respecting the law in the first place kind of implies that there isn't a blood right law at all. Maybe I just jumped to a bunch of non sequiturs here, and I'm not exactly thinking clearly. It seems law doesn't even matter to imperialism in the first place. But some input from Punkette/Apostate/etc would be loved here.
and @miatog, those examples listed don't seem to be the Exiles as a group. Those seem to be the individual races doings before the Exiles were even completely formed.
Not just blood rights, but land ownership through communal social property! As for the humans leaving: American Civil War. It was all based on Secessionists. Same thing with the war for American Independence. Though for both of those there were also loyal citizens of the "Other Side" trapped in what was "Hostile Territory".
As for the other half: Aiding and Abetting Secessionists/Seditious Criminals/Terrorists is itself a criminal act. It's also why the US stomped through Iraq and Afghanistan for the past decade.
Imperialistic Expansion, for certain. If you consider the rights of the Granok to own their land and the planet to be true then the Dominion were in the wrong. But you can't pick and choose who's land rights to look at. If the Dominion were in the wrong, here, the Exiles are in the wrong, now. You can't have it both ways! This is also why in the first post I tried to make it explicitly clear that both sides were conquering and imperialistic.
Remember: The second half of Adverse Possession is keeping the property even after the original owner makes their claim. It's almost literally a Might makes Right situation, and one you advocate for on Nexus, after a fashion. Both sides did wrong, by this definition of property rights.
Well there's the rights of the Luminai, but also the implied joint ownership through the Dominion, which the Eldan did not withdraw from. Again, if all the humans vanished in the Star Trek Universe the Romulan Star Empire would not have a claim to Earth unless they conquered it. It would still be a Federation holding. And of course those Mechari who were manufactured there. As sapient beings and "People" they should have just as much right to own something as anyone else.
Again. I'm not trying to exonerate the Dominion or vilify the Exiles. I'm just trying to show that both of them are imperialistic conquerors, and that doesn't make them evil by definition.
The confusion here seems to stem from the perception that the Dominion has any reason to care about what the Exiles think.
They don't. Yes, the Dominion believes in the rule of the law but they also believe that they are the ultimate arbiters of that rule of law. Whether or not they had any rightful claim to Nexus, they were going to take it. They feel that they do, because the Dominion -always- feels they have righteous motivations for doing whatever they feel like doing. History is written by the victors, after all, and the Dominion intends to ensure that they will emerge the victor in this or any other conflict.
This is what empires do.
Whew, too much thinking for one day. I'm done. Gunna go find a game to mindlessly kill people on, rofl. I've went back and forth in my beliefs so much in the last hour..
Exactly! Each side subjectively chooses which laws or rules it will follow in relation to the other, and which claims or opinions it will entertain. Because the Dominion feels no need to justify itself to the Exiles and the Exiles feel no need to do the reverse. Each side is -thoroughly- in the right from their own viewpoint, and completely in the wrong from the opposite viewpoint.
As external beings it is left to us to look at things objectively, since we're the only ones who can. Everyone else exists within the universe and is bound by their social and cultural conditioning to view themselves with absolute priority, and all other groups as having a lower priority.
The use of magic with well thought out regulations and capacities is seldom encountered. This may be emphasized in games more than other works. Binding magic with the laws of reality is seldom depicted well, and I'd say frequently gets out of control fast. "Such rules and laws are very poorly understood by most people within the canon", because the creators want to include magic, but they don't want to put thought into how magic functions themselves.
Going with Apostate's "life feeds on life", oftentimes the only requirement for the use of magic is a mana pool and the consequence of using magic is emptying this pool. One then uses a mana potion to restore this. Where did the mana potion come from? Herbs!
Now a game, for example, or mmorpg with a strong sense of magic will have something like this...4 magic fields and all the spells categorized under and crossing the 4 realms. Now when a certain spell is cast, that spell becomes weaker in the realm overall. So with every Bob and Jill casting fireball, then the effectiveness of said spell weakens, and the fire realm of magic eventually weakens from continual usage of spells. The opposing realm, say water, may very well strengthen overall. Now this may be seen as another source of power, but it provides a much better explanation to how magic works and shares a power source amongst itself. One may add mana pools, potions, and herbs to this, but a split from canon is preferred.
I'll use the example of Star Wars and the Force. With everyone wondering how that really worked...then Episode I comes along with midichlorians, and the mass response is 'Well...that's lame'.
Why am I going on with various depictions of magic? Because the way individuals choose to depict and explain magic in games and literature is very subjective based on cultural relativism, or their own culture, knowledge, and understanding of others foreign to their own.
Magic being a constant that redefines the laws of physics for the people in that fantasy isn't really a way I considered viewing magic before. This is most likely because magic and technology/science are often depicted, in games again, as opposing sides. So saying magic is rated beyond and above science's explanation wherever it exists really sticks it to tech/scientist crowd. It is very easy for most people to follow the tech/science reasoning in the game/literature, but the magic's foundation is often not included and left up to the individual to consider. At this point, every person will develop different reasoning in order to understand the use of magic in given game/literature - unless said individual is the type to rush to max level, doesn't pay attention to anything else in game, and could care less about applying thought to what is or why something is occurring
Are your views based on vast steam punk knowledge? I really think like that's how you defined and related magic yourself.
It's actually based on Arthur C. Clarke's 3 laws.
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. But when he states that something is impossible he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Anything we do not understand, currently, can be attributed to "Magic". And once we understand it it is no longer magic, but just another form of science or fact. In a universe wherein magic exist it always follows certain rules. Those rules are just poorly, if at all, understood. In much the same way electricity was misunderstood by most people when Tesla was trying to convince them that Alternating Current was far superior to Direct Current.
Don't get me started on Steampunk. I'll have to make a topic in the Off-Topic boards.