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Rachel's Racial Roundup

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Steampunkette, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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  2. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    Computer restart and stuff...but I'm not done! ha.
    Hmm I need to re-fresh and expand my knowledge on such subjects more. Here's what I have to say on 3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - for the individual not knowledgeable on the functioning of said technology. One man's magic is another man's outdated project, when taking this view point.

    Not always a fan of anything we can't understand, atm, being considered "magic" I understand that's how people sometimes think and have thought. For example, native N. and S. American cultures encountering ships with sails, metal armor, and guns.

    In other circumstances, like in a Sci-Fi show like umm StarGate, certain individuals understand alien technology to a degree but not fully, really displacing it from being something they'd regard as magic. Perhaps, a scientific mind approaches it as a not fully learned science. Going too far into this now!

    Really not a fan of the Force in SW being explained away with something similar to living nanotechnology nonsense. If the "rules are just poorly, if at all, understood" it is because the the creator poorly understood his/her own implementation of the magic in the first place, imo. On the other hand, the implementation could have been so well down and complex leading to people poorly understanding it, but I'd say that seldom occurs.

    Back to WS!!! The Eldan did all this advanced researching and experimentation with magic and science/technology, so I hope Carbine depicts the two sources of power well and as separate entities :D Will be interesting to see how the classes that interweave power and technology, like the Spellslinger, will play.
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  3. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Seems like I remember ancient Aztecs being amazed at people on horseback, while not simply understanding at first that they were just men on animals. Instead they thought of them as gods.

    I can easily wrap my perception around the fact that Wildstar 'magic' is just another facet of science. If they called it something other than magic it would be easy to grasp that idea. Kind of like the stalker which they depicted as having their abilities derived from Eldan technology.
  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Good analysis but I don't agree with the conclusion. It would take a long time to explain but I'm not a believer in the notion that "good" and "evil" are solely areas of gray and are relative to certain worldviews. Simply put, I still see the Dominion as a more evil force in the conflict of Wildstar versus the Exiles but there is still elements of gray mixed in. It's just obvious to me that the Dominion is more evil in the sense that they pursue other societies to bring them under their wing or wipe them out and expect their people to stay in line for the sake of "law and order" lest they be punished swiftly for disobedience. Like any imperialistic power, life is all fine and dandy so long as you conform to the chosen social structure and don't challenge your government. In such a case your rulers may even be generous to you. That's the whole concept behind welfare, government healthcare, etc., but I digress.

    It's a natural progression that as a nation or country grows in power, the ruling class becomes more emboldened and pursue avenues to expand their influence further. It's basic human psychology that leads to this and often it has some pretty dark sideeffects for less powerful people, including both the citizenry and foreigners alike. If we look into the Dominion, the exiled humans are a faction resulting from class divisions and corruption due to what amounts to the Cassians' caste-like system. Such systems are oppressive and condemning towards others simply for being born a certain way or under certain circumstances. I don't consider that neutral. The humans were right to reject such a system, but they too perhaps reacted in the wrong way. Conflicts rarely are between one wholly benevolent force versus a malignant one. The Exiles likely did a lot of collateral damage to cities and farms, key infrastructure that people rely on while killing people who have nothing to do with the conflict. More would have to be revealed to know exactly how the civil war went but I think it's fair to assume for now that the Exiles reacted to a wrong the wrong way. It's the same tale as most revolutions in our world. I think this probably explains the sentiments between the human races and the factions at large that will be centerplace in Wildstar.

    As for the other races, more analysis would need to be done which I'll reserve for a later post (I got stuff to do) but they have a little bit of a different reason to participate in the Exile-Dominion conflict. It's an interesting dynamic for sure because outside of the human races, the other races fall under somewhat different alignments as a whole compared to their respective factions. Your analysis on individual races is pretty fair although I'd hold any judgment on the "unrevealed" races because I don't believe we even know if the "chua" and "technozombies" are as interrelated as you claim.

    Good post overall. Also, I'm not reading the whole thread. -_- Sorry. I'm busy. ;_;
  5. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your viewpoint is entirely valid!

    And the thread did kind of explode, yesterday, which pleased me, endlessly!

    -Rachel-

    OhgodJynetiklikedmypostI'mgonnadietooawesome!

    -Rachel-
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  6. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    WOW! I go to bed come back from class and two entire pages! I'm going back a bit and being picking about I respond to cause...TWO PAGES!

    I'm not beating it to death, Steam mentioned it among other reasons as to why the Dominion has a claim to the planet, and you're arguing against it, and I'm backing it up.

    The fact that they keep houses and their blood 'pure' says they do care about blood rights a lot.

    The humans stole a ship, criminal. Yes this does give the Dominion every right to seek them out and destroy those humans. The Aurin then gave those humans a safe place to stay, even if they were only passing through. By not handing them over to the Dominion this is telling the Dominion "We don't care about your rules and laws and will help these rebels." That's a declaration of war, even if they didn't mean it. So yes, the Dominion had cause to wage war on the Aurin.

    The Granok killed an Ambassador, that is an out and out declaration of war. They didn't just say "No thanks." They declared war. A war the Dominion lost. The Dominion didn't kick the Granok off the planet, the Granok did. The Granok that the players can pick from were kicked off the planet by the other Granok.


    Two races that both declared war on the Dominion. It's their own fault. Once you declare war, either on purpose or without meaning, your rights to your land go bye bye. Your only right to your land once war starts, is the right of might.


    This is a great definition and one I wonder if Wildstar uses. I remember hearing that someone who went to an arkship said, magic has a reason. It's not just there cause it allows for easy class mechanics. This, specially the last one, would fit in with the Eldan perfectly. The Dominion even declared the Eldan gods so the idea that they have a super science that seems like magics fits in with them perfectly.
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  7. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Ok so you want to look at who caused it all? I suggest looking at the human racial page, humans had protests through the streets because the dominion were bringing in laws which caused civil unrest. Were they diplomatic towards the protestors? No, they had a "brutal crackdown" on those who disagreed and turned their weapons on to their own citizens. The humans not wanting to abandon their planet made a feeble attempt to win this civil war the cassians started and simply lost. They were reduced to fleeing.

    The aurin were only met when the humans landed there, as far as we know nobody knew the aurin were there, not even the humans that landed there until they met them. So how exactly do the aurin have a knowledge of these "strict" cassian laws? They gave supplies to the humans and the humans took precautions to try not to bring conflict to the aurin. It didn't help cos the dominion are a bunch of redacted who would attack the aurin just for having contact with the humans.

    Are these acts of war? Kinda yeah. But it escelated simply from the humans protesting, and turned to them rebelling when the cassians got violent. These "crimes" were commuted with good reason.

    And for the granok, they sent a mechari "ambassador" I somehow doubt it was an "offer" to join the dominion, the dominion just take what they want. It would make more sense that they gave the granok an ultimatum, saying they join or else. The granok are proud people and this would have been a spit in the face. Although this is all subjective so we don't know enough about this to take sides.

    And the cassians declared war on the humans by turning their weapons on them, going by your logic the cassians forfeit any land rights they have.
  8. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depending on the society and it's freedom of speech laws as well as the actual content and context of the "Protests" it may have been a seditious and secessionist protest, not unlike the guy who wants to have an armed march on Washington DC to show off his 2nd Amendment rights turn into an open battle if the cops try to stop them has broken the law by suggesting sedition is the appropriate response to stopping weapons from entering a no-weapons-allowed area.

    -Rachel-
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  9. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    True, but this comes down to being extremely subjective and without knowing the EXACT particulars we can't say who was in th right here. It could have been a peaceful protest for all we know, which led to cassians turning military force on to them. Wether it be law or not the entire reason they were protesting was to show numbers of unrest with the law.
  10. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Consensus! It could've been entirely on the Cassians or it may have been on the other Humans. Until we have actual lore definitions of what happened (which are Objective rather than Subjective) it becomes a wash.

    Also I totally didn't know the humans of the Exiles were also of Cassus. So I want to thank you and others for bringing that information into the thread for speculation!

    -Rachel-
  11. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    Perspectives welcome on this by everyone. I thought more on the magic being regarded as something science/technology has not reached yet or been able to explain. Now, lots of games and other fiction have the two, Science and Magic, opposing each other.

    Expanding on my thoughts, the scientific civilizations are often depicted with their cities and industrial revolutions set into motion. On the other side, the opposing magic culture is often shown as tribal or set in a medieval, sometimes feudal system.

    The scientific civilization will often show a disregard to nature, while the magic folks embrace nature. Oftentimes nature is depicted as a source of the magical powers, especially when magic is divided up amongst elements. When displayed with a tribal setting, this perspective on magic is often reinforced with more examples.

    The scientific folks are regularly depicted as snotty and arrogant towards the witches, mystics, conjurers, occultists, and necromancers, amongst other terms. I chose more negative terms for magic users, as such words more likely to bring up unfavorable connotations when used by the scientific minds. Unlike the term wizard or mage, which are very generic. Those deluding conjurers! Those devil worshiping occultists! - Get the point :)

    Now, going back to magic just being out of scientific definition. In these worlds that are often set up, with opposing sides, the scientists will most likely never advance their science to explain the opposing magic, which seems to be viewed as heresy. The magic users will never really explain how they're able to bring people back from life, cast fireballs, and do every spiffy thing that they do. Some way of focusing on harnessed power or concentrating on recited words seems to the the limits of explanation.

    Science <-- --> Magic, both sides seem to be going like that, with the Science being the newest understanding of the day, and the magic being something like an archeological dig to power. To expand on the later, a mage goes on a quest to find scrolls and then another one to an ancient relic that will enhance his abilities. The scientist may gather some old items, but they'll be used in creating new advancements of technology.

    I think playing all of these worlds, reinforcing such a view, has lead me to think of the two as very opposed, instead of one being out of the others grasp. I could even come up with more comparisons between the two, but wow that looks like a lot of text.

    And relating back to WildStar with Races and distinct classes assigned to each. I really think such perspective as my own and the opposing view are reasonings for that. Especially why those Mechari can't use magic ;) I think there is an entire thread on that subject alone, I should go contribute! On the other hand, if the Eldan hadn't reached said magic via scientific process, the Mechari would not be able to either!
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  12. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Dude... I like you. You're very deep into understanding the writing dichotomy and almost to the end point which I will now COMPLETELY spoil for you!

    Writers create the opposition of Science and Magic in most current works for one simple reason: To get across their personal agenda. I know. I know! It's crazy, right? But in situations where Tech -and- Magic are opposing forces, one is invariable "Better" than the other in the end. Either Steampunk-styled "Magic falls before Science!" or "Magic defeats evil Science!". Either way the argument is the same: Technology is Evil/Good and the Natural World is Good/Evil.

    The "Hard Work" lifestyle of our more agrarian segments of culture are more likely to support magic over technology in writing than the reverse. Because they, themselves, experience nature far more acutely than city-dwelling members of our society. While the City-Dwelling members are more likely to look to Technology rather than Natural or Mystical solutions.

    And that leads into the dichotomy of the "Magic" race and the "Techno" race from a designer's standpoint. This is why Aurin can be Spellslingers and Espers but not Warriors. And why Mechari can be Warriors and Stalkers, but not Espers or Spellslingers. Each race is meant to appeal to a specific subset of fantasy-consuming individuals: Those who hold Nature/Magic more important and those who hold Science/Tech as more important.

    Similarly, in each case in which Science and Magic conflict in the game, you can expect one side or the other to "Squeak out" a victory or FLATLY destroy the other with little in the way of middle ground.

    This dichotomy, like all dichotomies, is false. Because within every person there is room for a wide variety of positions on magic vs tech. Sure there are some who discard all belief in magic and others who throw away scientific information. But most people fall somewhere in the middle.

    Most writers who do the Magic/Tech dichotomy a strong structural element within their story will declare one of them the "Winner" by the end of the story. And it will usually be the oppressed group rather than the supported group. Keep an eye out for those rare stories that keep both Magic and Science as rough equals, with some room to allow one or the other to be better at specific tasks, because those tend to get far more interesting!

    -Rachel-
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  13. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would first like to state that there's a difference between being right and having cause. I said they had cause to go to war, didn't say they were necessarily in the right.

    EDIT: And after making this I realize I had poor word choice in my last post that sounded like I was blaming the Granok and Aurin for the wars. Not my intent, that's my bad with my words I could and should have been more careful.

    We don't know the specifics of the protests but we're given an idea.

    When have you ever heard the phrase civil unrest, protests, and peaceful all used in the same phrase? No it's not proof, but the image is clear. They were far from happy and some times even peaceful protests break into violence. Plus, we don't know if they even had the right to protest. The idea that you can freely march around and speak against the leadership is pretty new in our world. Who's to say they even had the legal right to protest in the first place?

    We can't say who started it when the humans broke off. The fact is there are far too many unknowns here, and there's a part of me that expects both sides have a different story of who started it. Dominion line could be that they were violent from the get go. Exile line could be that they never attacked, were shot on, and everything started from there. And as you and Steam has said, until we hear more from an objective point of view (one I expect we'll never have) it's going to be an argument of speculation or which side we like more.

    As for the Granok, I see nothing here that suggests an ultimatum was offered.

    A diplomatic offer was given to them. One that would have elevated their knowledge and technology far beyond where they were at the time, and their response was to smash the ambassadors. There was no ultimatum. Could an ultimatum have followed that? Possibly. But we'll never know, because the Granok started it.

    And we have more evidence that they don't just smash and grab.

    The Draken are a people who respect strength above all else. An army was brought to show they have great and powerful military. A winner takes all challenge was issued. The Dominion acted in the best way they could to get the Draken to join up.

    And your idea that the Aurin were unknown to all...possible but there's a line in the Aurin page that suggests you might be wrong.

    If the Aurin didn't know anything about things off their planet, how could they really appreciate their independence? It sounds like the Aurin appreciated not being in the Dominion and sided with the humans for it. Later on the same page has the queen sending out a distress signal which again implies they know about the universe outside their own.
  14. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    And more than knowing about the planets beyond theirs, but having the technological or magical prowess to send a message faster than the speed of light. And having a place to send it to, as well!

    -Rachel-
  15. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Although I could sit and argue with miatog I'm going to choose not to as I don't have the time being at work and all, and I am basically bashing my head against a brick wall trying to make any point to him as his mind is made up, and doesn't seem to be open to much other than dominion being innocent.

    But this aurin point Rachel, they had just been on contact with the humans and given them suplies, the humans took precautions to try not to bring conflict to the aurin, but knowing the dominion were on their tail perhaps worked in a failsafe too? They could have given the aurin a destress beacon of sorts in case of a worst case scenario, it is obvious the humans didn't think twice about returning to the planet to save as many aurin as possible so perhaps they prepared for itt if need be?
  16. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think Miatog understands fine. He's not arguing that the Dominion's innocent of all possible wrongdoing, he's saying that they consider themselves justified in their actions. Two different things.
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  17. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's a really good point, Skippy. Though I think Apostate is right about the problem being that you and Miatog are talking around each other. I THINK he thinks you're trying to exonerate the Exiles of all wrongdoing or responsibility for what happened. And I think you're feeling like it's being heaped on far more than it should be.

    -Rachel-
  18. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Fifty shades of grey . No clear good or bad guy.
    Again, awesome !
  19. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Don't make me stake you.

    -Rachel-
  20. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Hmm less clear cut and more blurring of the lines!

    There that's better.
    But yes, it makes for much better story telling when one side isn't blatantly good or bad. More interesting worlds, more perspectives and so on!

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