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Rachel's Racial Roundup

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Steampunkette, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Like I said, I wouldn't really call them evil either. They are huge jerks to everyone that isn't an asset for them though, and they definitely don't play by the rules. The main point of my post was to combat Rachel's "The Exiles are just as bad" outlook that she seemed to have (Though I may be mistaken on that). The Exiles don't do anything that the Dominion does, nor do they have the same attitude or reasons for doing things. The only reasons the Exiles are even on Nexus and hurting the natives are that that:
    They were forced out of their own planets.
    Their big ships are broken.
    The natives wouldn't negotiate or weren't intelligent enough to.
    The natives are fighting them without negotiating.

    Bottom line is that they aren't choosing to be jerks, they have little choice, it is necessity. Also it should be pointed out that the Eldan said that the "Humans of planet Cassus were destined to rule over a star spanning empire." Since the Human Exiles are also from Cassus it is entirely possible this prophesied that with the guidance of the Humans, the Exile group will expand and grow to peacefully encompass all nations. Also, Nexus is "owned" by Cassians, but the Human Exiles are again from Cassus and they have just as much "god given right" to the planet as the Dominion does.

    These are the intricacies of this lore I find very interesting. Both sides have a destined claim to the universe and more specifically planet Nexus. The Dominion are just jerks in how they do things and the Exiles aren't. Which side will win? Which side is better? Who is right? These are questions I cannot answer.
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  2. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    I still personally don't agree with the point in the OP's post stating the Exiles are an Imperialistic conquering society though.
    I can see where the idea comes from, But to conquer is to be victorious and it is pretty evident the Exiles haven't been in pretty much any sense. The Granok of the Exiles are the only ones who have had a ''victory'' worthy of making them conquerors, and this victory took from them the very thing that they were fighting for, their home. Kinda cancels out the fact they conquered the Dominion there.

    And then there is the fact of being called Imperialistic, someone working at Imperialism is looking to extend their territory and influence. Now the Exiles literally have no territory, Are they trying to find themselves land to call their own? yeah, of course they are. But i see this as them being more Nomadic until the point they found somewhere they wanted to call home. At this point they are trying to settle land, not expand their territory.

    So seeing Exiles as Conquering imperialists just doesn't sit right with me given what those words actually mean.
  3. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah. The Exiles are like me in Minecraft when I search a hundred years for the right spot, which happens to be on a village. I like villages, but if they tried to fight me then I would dispatch them because I can't communicate with them at all.

    And then the Dominion is the griefing <REDACTED> who walks in and pours lava all over my wooden house and chests and takes my area for his own because he decided he could. And then he spits on my face. :(
  4. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Pretty much this, i mean i am rather open minded here, i know the Exiles did bad things in a quest for their own (and their allies) well being. But the dominion have done bad things too, in their violent reactions to civil unrest in the quest to bring about order. the list goes on for both sides.

    But when i read the OP's post (primarily just the Exiles and Dominion parts), I am reading heavy favoritism for the Dominion, dropping in justifications for their actions along the way. and when i read the Exiles part it is mostly pointing out the bad things the exiles are doing with pretty much no justification other than ''but they aren't evil''.

    I am not saying the Dominion are evil and the Exiles are innocent, Because that simply is not the case, both have done their own bad things. The Dominions being more imperialistic, and the Exile's being more Nomadic, But i am saying if someone is to do an objective writeup it should not be weighted one way or the other, but that is the vibe i am getting from the OP's post.
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  5. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    The reason I'm pointing out the positives in the Dominion and the negative in the Exiles is simple and stated in the OP: To show that both sides are doing some of the same stuff and that that stuff is generally neutral but viewed as positive or negative based on circumstance and viewer position.

    Okay. I didn't explain it that clearly or directly in the OP, but it's how I meant it.

    As for the "Rules of War": That is an incredibly ethnocentric set of moral imperatives based on Western Ideology which determines what is considered right or wrong. You have to remember that, objectively, there is no moral absolute. There is no right or wrong from an OBJECTIVE perspective. Which is another thing this thread has been about.

    People tend to look at the Nexus War through the eyes of the Exiles in an incredibly Subjective manner. "Oh, the Exiles didn't have a choice!" "The Exiles are the Good Guys!" "The Dominion is Evil!" which, while true from the Exiles point of view, tends to be a lot more close minded to the other subjective perspective: The Dominion.

    Is Dominion Law oppressive? Probably. Any society with laws of any kind is generally viewed as oppressive by some portion of the population, regardless of how needed those laws are. Did you know that the government is oppressing people's religious freedoms across the US by declaring that all insurers have to pick up the tab on birth control as a preventative medical supply for women? If a portion of the Religious Right rebelled in a violent "American Revolution" type Civil War, would you root for them? If they started killing Cops and shooting women buying Birth Control would you root for them?

    Please don't derail this thread into a discussion of religion, birth control, or insurance. It was an example rationalization for a revolution.

    The Aurin helped the seditious and secessionist Cassians and their planet was invaded for it. The Dominion claimed sovereignty as a direct response to aiding and abetting the traitors. Now remember, this wasn't some -SMALL- groups of humans getting help. This was the entire military force of the humans. This isn't equivalent to hiding a couple of terrorists in the mountains, either. The Aurin were directly supplying an opposing military force that had been at war for almost 300 freaking years.

    As for the yelling of genocide or "Wiping Out" the Aurin: The Queen and a contingent of the Aurin left, sure, but according to the Aurin Lore page there are Aurin that were left behind that the Queen swore she'd return for. This implies that they were most likely Conscripted or otherwise pulled into Citizenship roles within the Empire, not killed.

    I don't disagree that from a subjective viewpoint, specifically the Exiles viewpoint and viewpoints sympathetic thereunto, the Dominion are horrible jackbooted goosestepping thugs. I just want everyone to appreciate that that is one viewpoint, valid as it may be, on a situation that has more than one side. And I'd like everyone to remember that regardless of who wins the Nexus War, one side's subjective viewpoint will be glossed over in History. With the winner being considered the morally correct side, forever.

    -Rachel-
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  6. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I think that somewhere in Carbine the developers are very, very happy. They never wanted one side to be viewed as good or evil, but more of a reflection of reality. Both are grey. This long debate about motivations and arguments for and against different moral standings proves they have managed to pull that off. This is a good thing! :up:
  7. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    The laws of war aren't catering to any side, though. They are objective moral guidelines that say "Don't hurt anyone you don't need to, don't try to stretch a war out if you can help it" stuff like that. Granted this is a real life stuff that isn't really in the fantasy world, so these codes of war may not exist. However, they are simply moral rules that deal with your rights as a sentient being capable of thought and free will. These laws don't need to be written down to exist, they are just "It's not right to murder 1000 innocent people kthxbai". It doesn't matter your perspective, some things will ALWAYS be bad, such as murdering innocents, because there is no way to justify it. Justification really is the key thing here.

    The Aurin didn't know anything about the war:
    Source.

    They were a completely neutral planet that knew nothing about "other worlds among the stars", let alone the war between two opposing factions of a race on one of those stars. They helped out the humans because the seemed nice, and offered them technology they had never seen before. When the Dominion found out about that, they decided that they owned the Aurin. The only thing you could really ask for is that the Aurin stay out of the war from now on and perhaps give you equal supplies that they gave the exiles (Or say "If we ever need your help in a pinch, you help us out too"). Sending reapers to demand all of the planets resources and then starting a war with the Aurin was BAD thing, there is no way to logically justify that as anything other than bad. They didn't deserve that kind of punishment.

    First of all, no one is "yelling genocide", I said they "attempted xenocide". And didn't they? No doubt they would have killed every last one of the Aurin had they continued to resist rather than fleeing. They took the entire planet and tried to wipe them out, all for what? Assisting the Exiles in a war the Aurin weren't even aware of?
    It implies nothing of the sort. It implies that some Aurin were left on the planet to fend for themselves and the Queen (Being a loving and caring monarch) swore to return for them. They could've been sold into slavery, killed, or "pulled into citizenship roles". However I have to say that the latter is pretty unconvincing seeing as the Dominion was very willing to murder any resistance on the planet and take the whole thing for themselves. It's likely that they were made into slaves of some kind to work the planet's machinery and dig up resources for the Dominion (Since I doubt they would have killed them, as that line does imply that in the future we may be able to rescue them in game).

    As for "the perspective" you keep talking about, I don't very well have one. This is a completely new IP and I'm responding directly to the information I've been fed. The Exiles just want peace without the Dominion empire, and they're willing to fight for it rather than lie down and be oppressed. Does this make them good guys? No, law is good, who knows what sort of anarchy or etc. might happen without the Dominion rule. Same goes for the Dominion, they feel like they have a right to many things and they exercise those rights. This doesn't make them bad.

    The problem is that a lot of the stuff the Dominion does is morally questionable at best, such as taking Arboria. They refer to other races as "pathetic vermin" and have no problems with putting them out of their "misery". Are they evil? That's debatable. But they are certainly being huge <REDACTED>s about things, oppressing people, killing innocents, showing no respect for any races that don't fit their agenda, etc.

    I'm going to be Exile simply because I don't agree with that type of morally corrupt system, and I'll take my chances on the "galactic anarchy coin flip". I didn't just pick a side and then start defending them like perhaps some people do ("The Exiles are the good guys derp derp" "The Dominion aren't bad bluh bluh"). I looked over the information and decided I couldn't deal with the type of oppressive and inhumane actions of the Dominion. And it's really sad too because I actually like the Dominion races more probably. So in other words, I started out here with an objective perspective, in fact one that may have even slightly favored the Dominion. And now here I am, an Exile, because I don't want to be part of something like the Dominion, even in a fantasy realm (But that's your choice if you're okay with that).

    Bottom line: I do appreciate the viewpoint, but the Dominion just can't justify (m)any of their actions in the lore. Even saying it is their "destiny" is kind of false, since "Humans of Cassus" were the ones with the destiny, not just those within the Dominion. Ergo Nexus belongs just as much to the Exiles as it does to the Dominion based on that destiny.

    I wish the factions were more subjective, but as it stands the Dominion are "bad" and the Exiles are "good". The reason for that is simply because the Exiles can justify the bad things they do, whereas the Dominion cannot. However, if you feel you are able to justify some examples for me ("The Dominion needed to do this because...") then I am more than willing to change this standpoint. Though my views will regrettably stay the same until someone actually brings me some compelling evidence.
    I wouldn't exactly say that, I'm sure some people genuinely agree with the Dominion side of things, but I think most people are in it for other reasons. Some people like to be viewed as the villains, or maybe they wanted a certain race. I'd estimate that a lot of people are just backing up the Dominion side of things (In discussions like these) to justify their own superficial choice (Like one of getting to play a certain race). While that's not a bad thing at all, I just wanted to point out that a vast majority of people will overlook lore (As well as reasoning, logic, and their morals) to justify their own choices and opinions. Such has been evidenced to me in other games, such as everyone calling Logan Thackeray a coward without actually knowing what happened and the horrible burden of a choice that was forced upon him (Please keep in mind that this comment is not directed at Rachel or anyone at all in particular).

    I could be entirely wrong though, perhaps the community here is vastly more intelligent than the majority of the internet I have personally encountered. But in general on the internet, at least outside of this community, I think people seldom make very informed decisions about the things they do (Which includes but is not limited to picking a faction on a game).
  8. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    The humans of Cassus were uplifted by the Eldan specifically to create the Dominion. Any Cassian who chooses instead to fight the Dominion would rightly be considered a traitor to that legacy. This isn't an arbitrary or theoretical matter, there are still a number of Luminai and Mechari around. The connection to the Eldan is very concrete.

    As for the rest of it, the Dominion is an imperial power. If you play ball, things go well. If you don't, they won't. The Aurin... well, they didn't really have a ball to play ball with, as far as the Dominion is concerned. The only thing they have worth bargaining for is their resource-rich homeworld, and the Dominion saw no need to bargain for it. They were militarily insignificant, culturally irrelevant, and technologically inferior. And they'd proven themselves accomplices to wanted criminals that, in the Dominion's eyes, would likely be considered terrorists.

    So it's more of a... happy accident than a specific campaign of xenocide. When life hands you lemons... :)

    Anyways, yes. The Dominion is a brutal conquering power. People are entitled to their opinions on brutal conquering powers, of course. I happen to be fond of them, at least in scenarios such as this when so much of the setting is "wild". In earlier times, IRL, most of humanity's major advancements in civilization came at the hands of such great conquering powers. Admittedly, I'm one of those "ends justify the means" types. Machiavelli is one of my favorite political thinkers and I consider myself more of a pragmatist than an idealist.

    So, my stance on the Dominion isn't so much, "Woo, bad guys!" as, "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few backs."
  9. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well at least you hold no illusions. Like I said, it's a person's choice for whatever they want to do, especially in a fantasy realm. I just can't alter my morals to the degree I would need to in order to be comfortable with the Dominion. I'm one of those "I prefer the means to not need much justification" types. Also, I'd like to say again that it's great that the Dominion want to creat an empire and stuff, but they are completely awful people. They literally treat two (Count 'em, two) other races with even a smidge of respect, and even one of those (The Draken) they are not very content with. They must have hundreds of planets probably under their control with thousands of races, and only two of those races get respect and the rest are treated as "pathetic vermin that infest the galaxy". Like I've said before, conquering is great and wonderful for an empire, but there is no reason to treat everyone you conquer like <REDACTED>. The Dominion's arrogant and ignorant attitude turns me off to them just as much as their faulty morals.

    Also, where does it say that the Eldan chose them to establish the Dominion? From my understanding, they chose them to "Establish a star-spanning empire" which has no ties to one faction or the other. Simply that some day, some time, some humans from planet Cassus will create a star spanning empire.
  10. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    They placed their faith in the Cassians to rule and created the Luminai to lead them. The Luminai created the Dominion. The Dominion is a star-spanning empire. The Mechari, handiwork of the Eldan themselves, support the Dominion.

    I don't know how much clearer it could be.
  11. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    As well as that all is, the Eldan never said specifically that only the humans in the Dominion had a right to the planet Nexus or etc. The Mechari are a poor example because they clearly know very little about the Eldan (For whatever reason) or they would know what happened. The Luminai were given to the Dominion, yes. But also clearly they know nothing of the Eldan's entire plan, or it would be known by now.

    All I'm saying is that no one truly knows of the Eldan's plan or what happened to them. They gave rights of the planet Nexus to humans of Cassus, not to the Dominion. So the planet belongs to both sides equally. For all we know, they even foresaw the schism and the forming of the Exiles, and planned all along for the Exiles to create the empire. Who knows?
  12. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Here's a Justification for the annexing of Arboria.

    The Dominion had little alternative except to annex Arboria due to their deep involvement with the Traitorous, Seditious, and Secessionist Cassians who label themselves "Exiles". The Aurin leadership chose a side in an ongoing war that had been occurring for 300 years. Whether she was tricked into doing so by the traitors through lies of omission is irrelevant. If the Traitors did not inform her royal majesty of the situation they thrust her into it lies upon them for having willfully dragged the Aurin into open war. If the Queen was informed of her choice, prior to offering aid to the Traitors then she made her decision willingly.

    The result, however, must be the same. Arboria was, from that moment on, an enemy of the Dominion willing to offer supplies and shelter to the Dominion's enemies. Annexing Arboria was among the only choices the Dominion had to ensure that the Traitor's supply lines would be broken. The alternative option, Orbital Blockade, is only used in situations where full annexation would result in a greater loss of life, after all.

    And thus the planet became property of the Dominion in the interest of avoiding further bloodshed and loss of life. And all resource-gathering expeditions on the surface were completely legitimate, thereby. When certain members of the Aurin Society waged illegal war upon the Resource Gathering Expedition those specific groups entered into open war with the Dominion by attacking what was functionally a peacekeeping force. From what we've got on file the remaining populace was most likely indoctrinated into the Dominion, either as refugees or as prisoners based on the extent of their personal involvement with the Traitors and the Aurin who attacked the Peacekeeping force during the Resource Gathering Expedition.

    Strip mining of Arboria is functionally required by the kind of war the so called "Exiles" are running. A scorched earth policy ensures that the beleaguered enemy force will not be able to resupply on Arboria ever again. And will stand as a warning to all other worlds who would aid the "Exiles" in their war against the Dominion.

    The Exiles are continuing a multi-generational war against the Dominion as Dominion Peacekeeping Forces attempt to detain and place on trial the perpetrators of continued hostilities. And because of their reckless endangerment of human and non-human lives they should be stopped at all costs, to avoid further bloodshed.

    -Rachel-
  13. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    I wasn't aware that heavily favored propaganda was the definition of justification nowadays. When that message shows up in Cassian newspapers, people might believe it. However here we are outside that world and able to scrutinize facts and objectively look at a situation, which as stands is:

    Aurin knew nothing about war
    Exiles got help from Aurin and left
    Aurin aren't going to help the Exiles again (The Exiles simply stopped to refuel, and left as soon as possible with surely little plans of returning)
    Dominion finds out
    Instead of asking the Aurin not to interfere, negotiating, or simply ignoring the primitive race that got accidentally marginally involved in your war, they claim the planet
    Strip it of resources, kill the indiginous population, force the Aurin to give up their peaceful neutral lives and enter the war

    Outside of Dominion newspaper article 3, we can see the facts clear as day. Careful wording and skewing of evidence isn't what I call justification. The Dominion openly encouraged more (And truly excessive) bloodshed.
  14. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Dude: Justification doesn't have to sway you, personally. It doesn't have to justify it to everyone. If that were the case then NOTHING would EVER be justified because the victim of any act wouldn't accept the Justification. That's kind of the point of Subjectivity.

    Your Propaganda is another person's Reason and someone else's Justification. You asked for a Justification. You didn't ask me to justify it to -you- which is obviously impossible because of your personal biases.

    Also: STOP saying they killed the indigenous population. Just stop it. There's no evidence that they committed genocide.

    -Rachel-
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  15. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    <Moderator growl>Please, tone down the heat a little bit! :)</Moderator growl>
  16. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry. Just gets my Rowdowser to have things that didn't happen inferred upon as a primary reason of disliking something. Same thing happens with the Forsaken, CONSTANTLY, who get accused of making anyone they raise as a Forsaken fight for them. In the starting area of the Forsaken you learn that isn't the case when 2 out of 3 newly raised Forsaken you interact with go "Screw Sylvanas. I'm gonna go do my own thing."

    -Rachel-
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  17. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    The Luminai and Mechari -are- the Eldan's plan. The Dominion is the Eldan's plan.

    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/the-game/races/cassian.php

    "At the behest of their masters, the Mechari journeyed to Cassus in a fleet of hyper-advanced starships."

    "Bearing gifts of powerful Eldan technology to the people of his mother’s homeworld, the message of Dominus was a simple one: swear loyalty to him, and together they would rule the greatest empire the galaxy had ever seen."

    The Mechari were instructed by the Eldan to bring the Cassians into the fold. The Eldan directed the Cassians to establish an empire under the leadership of the Luminai. That empire is the Dominion. This isn't a matter of vague prophecy, there's no interpeting to be done. The relationship between the Cassians and Eldan is both literally and figuratively embodied by the Luminai.

    I will repeat this one more time, for clarity's sake: the Eldan had the Mechari contact the Cassians, who then received Dominus the Half-Blood (the first Luminai)from the Eldan to lead them in the construction of the empire that the Eldan wanted them to build. The "humans of Cassus" are not the leadership installed by the Eldan, the Luminai are. And the Dominion is the empire begat by them. There is no wiggle room here.
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  18. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm fairly frustrated, at the moment, by how this awesome thread of different viewpoints and mutual respect has become very combative and aggressive. I'm not going to ask for it to be locked down or stopped in any way, of course. I'd just like to ask that equal respect be afforded to all viewpoints and that people avoid confrontational language which invariably divides the discussion.

    -Rachel-
  19. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't say they committed genocide, I said they killed the indigenous population. I did not say that they killed all of the population. They killed many when the Aurin resisted the Dominion's armies taking over their planet. This is fact.

    Also that still wasn't justification. It has nothing to do with my biases. Justification is to "show an action to be reasonable or necessary", it has nothing to do with personal opinion. The Dominion brutally oppressed the Aurin and stole their planet without even talking to the Aurin or trying to negotiate. There was no need to do the things they did, it was not necessary. You can make it sound necessary by filtering words and heavily favoring the Dominion, but that doesn't make it so. In fact with the Aurin being as primitive as they were (Didn't even have spaceships) it would have been easy to avoid bloodshed and blockade them even if negotiations had failed. They didn't try to avoid bloodshed, they specifically tried to oppress the aurin and remove from them their basic rights as beings, and in doing so they broke the moral laws of war. There was no need for it, it wasn't justified, and ergo they did it specifically to hurt the Aurin.

    Imagine the USA was at war with Mexico, and Cuba is totally neutral. Some Mexicans get shipwrecked on Cuba, and the Cubans just be good people and help them out (Also Cuba somehow doesn't know we are at war with Mexico). Then we nuke Cuba the following day. This is literally akin to what happened to the Aurin (In fact on a much smaller scale). The proper course of action would be to talk with Cuba, inform them of the war, negotiate, perhaps ask for supplies equal to what they gave Mexico and/or ask them to not aid Mexico any more. Not attempt to eradicate them. The Dominion do as they please with all the lives in the galaxy, and that isn't what I'd call "gray" or "neutral".

    I also realize this is a game, fantasy, and not real life. You may choose to do as you wish as a person. However it is clear as day that the Dominion (Good and bad labels aside) are doing morally corrupt and unjustifiable things to races throughout the galaxy (You can be sure the Aurins aren't the first this happened to, especially the way they refer to other races as vermin) as well as oppressing and disrespecting them.

    Edit: Also, in response to your recent comment, I'm not mad nor was I ever in this discussion. I also had no intentions of disrespecting anyone, I don't think such petty things have any place in a discussion. I believe you are once again reading too far into the things I say, like I told you in PMs the other day, I say what I mean and nothing more. There is no room for "implications" in a serious discussion. I do not intend to allow you to infer my meaning, or be sarcastic, or say anything that has me meaning more than I've said. I say exactly what I mean, nothing more and nothing less.
  20. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    Justification has everything to do with personal opinion. There's no such thing as moral objectivity, all morality is inherently subjective as it must be determined in relation to the experience of the person arbitrating it.

    Cows probably think it's very immoral to eat hamburgers.

    Edited to add: And no, it's not like nuking Cuba. They didn't nuke anything. It'd be more like if they decided to cut down the Amazon. They didn't go into the Aurin homeworld with kill squads roaming from door to door, cutting down little old ladies with precision fire. They deployed massive resource harvesting machines to bulldoze the planet, and if the aurin got caught in the way... oh well.

    You may consider that identical, but a court of law would not. It's the difference between premeditated murder and criminally negligent manslaughter.

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