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Racial Passives

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Ixath, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. heleos

    heleos New Cupcake

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    Coming from the old wow days, i was forced into being a Tauren to be a Druid.... Didn't bother me that much, I dealt with the traits. It was never a make-or-break situations. Racial traits should be fun!
  2. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think racial's that can affect any combat (PVE/PVP) in advantageous ways should be dealt with cautiously. Passive's definitely can fall under this category. Let me draw from WoW, the 1% attack/casting speed made it arguably the best race in the game for PVE. Now personally, I was a massive fan of Undead and yet my dedication to maximization 'forced' me into the other races.

    I understand the argument that it isn't forced onto us. But I believe that their shouldn't be a choice or sacrifice that people must make between what they like and what is best. Fun, creative and exciting racial's should not affect combat at all, and if such racial's cannot be thought of they should be excluded entirely.. People will choose what's best, just like PVP'ers getting PVE trinkets and weapons to make their experience better.
  3. Marv

    Marv New Cupcake

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    I like the idea of a trade off, e.g Granok having less int and more str, but in reality I think that's too much.

    I'd like to see something like Granoks resistance to movement speed impairment due to being a rock and Aurin having an increase to MS when in combat due to being so nimble (very small though 1-5%).
    This way there is a trade off and it would benefit the races classes fairly, (Granok warrior e.g hard to kite) and (Aurin Esper e.g easier to kite). But it wouldn't totally determine your race and class combo.

    Another take would be Draken 'bloodlust' damage buff ability inc damage by X% for X second due to being to bloodthirsty. And Cassian having a passive damage buff when in a party due to being natural 'leaders' but would be much lower than the Draken ability.
  4. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Racials should be avoided, if possible. There have been multiple WoW dev blogs on the topic of "If we could go back and re-do everything, we would've entirely removed racial bonuses." That kind of blunt hindsight should tell you just how impractical they are despite adding racial flavor.

    Any kind of damage/stat buff, however marginal, will set a race ahead of another. Any utility buff such as stuns, interrupts, CC-breakers inherently make them better for PVE or PVP, which means stacking a race in your raids (or forcing X race changes).

    Some recent memories from WoW:
    • Stack Tauren on Cho'gall for their stomp-stuns to get everyone in the raid out of the MC immediately.
    • Stack Trolls in Throne of Thunder for beast bosses, since they get +5% damage against them.
    • Horde in general are the preferred PVE race because of all their +damage racials vs. Alliance's relatively weaker ones.
    • Gnomes were the 'best' healer class in Cataclysm because of their +Int boost, which affected spell power, mana pools, and crit chance. Now in Mists I believe it's BElf?
    The best racials would be purely cosmetic or tradeskill-related. You might be able to get away with a few economy-based racials too. Things like +5 to X profession, +X% yield to professions, lower AH listing fees, higher discounts with vendors, higher chance to capture pets (if such a system exists in W*), etc.

    In theory, racials are cool. In practice, they're exploitable and cause massive population shifts. It takes away from character identity, especially among the more hardcore players who need to min-max, shifting between races every patch or expansion.

    I'd rather see racials left out.
  5. Awesomnius

    Awesomnius New Cupcake

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    Maybe racial actions? It'd be nice to have something like that instead of a bonus. I agree that stat/skill based racials are problematic. Solving it uniquely and awesomely is pretty hard.
  6. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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  7. Vermana

    Vermana Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think Racial Passives add a lot to a game and make your race choice feel a lot more important and defining to your character. Without special effects, voiceovers, passives and even actives, your race just feels like a skin for your character and nothing else. I think Passives and Actives should be included.

    On one condition.

    BALANCE THEM!

    This is imperative.. Racials need to be balanced! Since some Races can't play all classes, their passives can be tailored towards the classes they CAN play. But no passive or active should make one race inherently better at important things like PvP or Raids than other races! That LITERALLY CAUSES RACISM!! D:


    Anyway. Let's see.

    Mechari - Since the obviously superior race has trouble using magic (Can't play spellslinger or esper) Mechs should get something related to physical classes.

    Passive: "Maintenance Nanobots" - Increased health regeneration and a small amount of percent health regeneration even in combat. (Only Mechs have this.)
    Active: "Secret Weapon" - Charge for a short period, then fire a chest laser for a moderately powerful ranged area attack! Lasers! Pew Pew!


    Draken - The less superior but still superior to the foolish Exiles race, obviously inspired by dragons and warrior culture, so should get something berserker-esque.

    Passive: "Thrill of the Kill" - Gain increased movement speed whenever you kill something.
    Active: "Blood Thirsty" - Go berserk, since it's been too long since you drank your blood wine. Gain highly increased attack speed but decreased defense for a short time, and glow with bloody red flames, for added scary.


    Cassian - The ruling class of the Dominion, very fancy but still not as great as the Mechari. Their abilities would be based on finesse and intelligence.

    Passive: "Fine Tastes" - Acquire Personal Housing more easily, and gain Housing furniture drops at an increased rate.
    Active: "Dominion Superiority" - Assert your dominance over Nexus and grant a small buff to all nearby Dominion allies. Does not stack with itself.



    Not doing Exile because bleh.
  8. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Click the link in the post above you for how racial stuff is implemented.
  9. Vermana

    Vermana Cupcake-About-Town

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    I saw! But it's nice to dream. While that way seems like it will work really well, it doesn't seem to give each race its own special feel. Which is too bad, but at least the races will be more than just skins...
  10. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    As a min-maxer myself I can tell you any form of positive that affects the way you play or build your character will be utilized, broken down, and amplified in a way normally not thought of. Lets look at WoW since everyone seems to know it... Back in vanilla if you recall the undead had "Will of the Forsaken" similiar to a PVP trinket it broke cc effects instantly and then provided immunity to them for '2?' seconds with something like a 1 minute cooldown. Lets look at it now- same effect, but it no longer provides immunity but, instead simply breaks all current ones in effect- as well as provide a 30 second cooldown to similar abilities like the pvp trinket AND has a 2 minute cooldown. Something so minor like this made any hardcore pvp'r almost auto roll an undead as it was considered stupid not to.
    On the flip side of things undead had underwater breathing which made them be able to breathe underwater for 3 times longer without drowning. How awesome is that!?... Well- while flavorful and limited it provided absolutely no real strategical benefit and players even forgot that they had it most of the time to the point blizzard replaced it with a siphon attack (beats the heck out of me why that).
    What I'm getting at here is when you give a race some form of utility ability as a passive a player will look at it, figure out how to break it (because if it does anything that can affect combat it can be broken given some creativity) and then it'll become standard if it is the best of the utilities. When it comes to stats something so minor as 3 extra strength over someone or some more health can be the difference in picks. I recall taurens being one of the major tank classes due to their larger strength and stamina at starting levels and level gains were base line making them have a slightly higher number at max level. This SLIGHT number will be breaking points for people. I can say it was for me...
    Real good example here; in wrath of the lich king I had a DK blood elf and eventually race changed to an orc (because even though I really really wanted to play a blood elf there was no arguing the fact an orc had statistically better stats and racials for my race and role. So what happened you might ask? Well, My dps increased by an entire 5%-15%.... how you might ask?! Higher strength, I got an axe racial which increased my damage with axes (and I wielded a 2-hand axe) as well as a racial that gave me increased my attack power for a couple of seconds. These major differences added up to a large difference in damage while blood elfs couldn't compete against at all.
    Lets look at other racials while we're on the subject though- since I was just talking about blood elfs lets look at arcane affinity. This racial increased your enchanting by 10. Literally all it did- did it affect gameplay? Not really but, at end game when you max leveled everything including your enchanting did you care that you had it? Nope. Instead you just had a small lead at level 1 if you even went enchanting (if you didn't this racial might as well not have even been on your character) and then it became worthless. What was the entire purpose of it then? Its purpose was to save you litterally 5 or 6 silver to level your enchanting 10 times. Woop-di-<expletive>-do

    So... Hopefully I haven't lost you here as it would be a shame if I did... Now you might be thinking to yourself or screaming at your monitor screen at me: "Well Red... If utility and stats are overpowering and flavorful is worthless and forgettable to the player what racials are good and fair then!?" or others might simply say "Why the <expletive> am I reading this essay of a guy's opinions and comments?"
    To which I respond... "Funny you might ask." Lets take a look at worgen racials- Running Wild (I think that is the name) explicitly. This racial gave you the ability to 'mount yourself'... What does this mean? It made worgans get a free mount and could have a unique animation of them running on all fours. Pretty cool, players had the option to utilize it and most often did and it provided no significant bonus as all players had a mount- worgens simply ran on all fours instead of being on a horse, or bike, or w/e. What is something I think blizzard should have not done here? Give worgens free gold. This is a good example of a racial as it didn't provide any benefit except an artistic look and if a worgen had to buy a 1 time fee to "drop on four legs" it would've been perfectly balanced and everything. Of course I realize though some of you are saying "Dude- Red... your saying worgens had to pay gold to learn how to put their hands on the ground?" To which I respond... "eh-- ya..." Pretty stupid I know and it makes sense why blizzard choose the option of not making them pay the mount fee but, still pay the mount training fee (which is good and in all honestly was the most expensive part of the riding costs). To summarize this point though what did Running Wild give worgens from a min-maxer's perspective? Free 11 Gold towards mounts. At max level this is notably ignore able amount and at low levels- it wasn't much given the time it came out as gold tended to be easily obtainable even at low levels.
    From a casual or non-min-maxer's perspective though you got a unique riding mount only you had access to as a worgen and you likely used it instead as it made you feel unique and to be honest, pretty cool. You would never head someone say "Ya- I had to pick worgen because that free 11 gold really is broken dude, it <expletive> that I couldn't be something else but, you know- gotta have the best stats and all." This is because it was entirely flavor but, was still unique and provided a change in how you looked (showing off is something even the casuals will do).
    What about other racials you might ask? Lets look at Goblins now... Goblin Banker are the two in question if I recall the names correctly. What did this do now you might ask!? Its a mobile bank for the player that they may find handy running around- other players had access to these through other means but, this was free. Artistically speaking I hated the goblins and seeing that banker wasn't much "cool- I want that" but, from a player I went "oh- that is handy." Now, in terms of other means there were engineer bots and a pet you could summon to do the same thing but, it required a grind.
    Now assume you're a hardcore player- you're likely to grind the daylights out of everything from the grass to your m---maple trees. You're likely going to have that banker sooner or later and will enjoy it. You probably won't find it too much of a bother that goblin joe smoe had it for free as you have another racial that isn't "worthless". Now lets look at a casual player- you're possibly not going to farm the daylights out of things and might never even acquire this banker alternative. If you don't have it- well it doesn't hurt you too much. Might be a little annoying if you really need to get to the bank but, you'll live. If you're a goblin you might use it from time to time and be happy that you don't have to do that 'stupid grind the game shouldn't have' (Note slight hatred towards extreme casuals that don't like to grind even a little for anything and expect it handed to them)... Back on track- The last perspective is a min-maxer that both has the grind and gets the banker item. What does he have now? Well- he has two banker items now and is likely only going to need to use both of them on extremely rare cases making his grind a little pointless but, he had to have every item in the game....
    At no point though does this racial break balance, serve to power an individual or give someone an edge at any point in the game (even at level 1 why would having access to a bank help you?). At late levels it serves utility purposes but, not to the point that it can be used in combat or as an advantage per-say. As a far measure though other races could get something similar to it hurting its "unique special cookie" feel but, allowed others to have some access to their bank.
    So in conclusion Running Wild and Goblin Banker are two examples of a good racial. While wow had (4?) per race I really think only one or two is necessary to show some difference between them. Though its a tightrope when walking as stats will be looked at and chosen as a necessary amount. Utilities will be put through the gauntlet and be broken if they apply to combat. How do you make a good racial that will be used and has some form of difference in race? Make it non-combat oriented or non-combat affecting, give players that don't have the racial alternatives to 'mimic' it if they so choose through grinds or a long quest reward, and avoid things that only assist low levels and do nothing at high levels.

    Of course, these are just some of my thoughts on racials... You guys may not agree with me and may find my arguments entirely stupid. Though I need to remind you- people think really different from another and like I had said at the start, I am one of these min-maxers that will look for breaking racial skills. At the moments I can happily say all of the races look very interesting to me and I honestly don't think I wouldn't want to play a certain race at the moment. (Unless one of the yet to be revealed ones turns out to be a midget sized gnome/goblin like thing- in which case I'll want to punt it and I will really really really hate it if that race is the optimal race) So artistically I'll be happy no matter what.

    TL;DR?

    ...Really dude?! I just spent like 40 or so minutes typing this stupid thing and you want a summary?! I'll <expletive> kill you! I'll destroy you! I'll- *transmission cuts off as mods rush to restrain me*

    ....I'll behave.... *clears throat* Anyhow... Just read it, your life won't be changed though so much if you don't I guess- when it all comes down to it. It is my opinion of a min-maxer and I simply am trying to shed some light on the subject from my perspective.
  11. Sephel

    Sephel Not a Cupcake

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    Anyone remember the days of Tauren "Plainsrunning" instead of mounts? That was neat. I would like to see more racials like that. Things that are mechanic altering, like Aurin's jumping higher or moving faster in wooded areas.
  12. Ricky_Starwind

    Ricky_Starwind New Cupcake

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    Put them in, but don't make them any kind of CC or +% to damage or anything like that. Have it do with paths and housing type things. I remember my Fav. was the undead underwater 300% longer then everyone else. I would sap people when they would try and mine, or quest underwater, then when they would run out of air i would stun them and let them die. Flip jump for night elf i am sure people picked that race just for that over anythiing else. If you make it something that is cool but can almost do something then people will be happen to have it but not pick it. Exp, the tail people will pick them just b/c they have tails. Or just b/c they are bots, now if you dose life time warranty witch lets you get one free death fix evey hour, 3 or day then why not?
  13. Silverbacks

    Silverbacks New Cupcake

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    For the first 8 months of Vanilla WoW, Will of the Forsaken immunity actually lasted for TWENTY SECONDS! It was absolutely insane. It was then lowered down to 5 seconds, which was still very powerful.
  14. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok I forgot the zero... My bad... -.- regardless we have no issue with racial benefits as it is confirmed. This thread is more or less done.
  15. Aari

    Aari Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am not a fan of Racial Passives or Skills as they usually end up forcing me into a race for a specific class only for the passive and not because I actually want to play that race. I always want to get the most out of my char so I basicly dont have a choice.
  16. F8L Fool

    F8L Fool Cupcake-About-Town

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    I could go on for hours and hours about racial abilities, as I have in many "debates" in the past. However that would just take up a lot of time and most likely bring back horrible memories that I want to leave buried. Instead, I will just distill my argument into the purest form possible and state that instead: substantive racial abilities breaks games and results in players being miserable, or outright quitting.

    Allow me to elaborate why.

    When you start throwing in additional factors like lopsided base stats or imbalanced racial abilities, you get into the realm of obsessive min-maxing and players choosing a race that is practical for X gameplay or Y class; not for representing yourself as an avatar first and foremost. Players inevitably find what the best race for a specific task is, then flock to it in droves. They do it in order to have a leg-up over competition, which infuriates those that refuse to reroll and must now compete with a further bloated racial divide. This phenomenon will wear on a community and chip away at the player base, as those that can't put up with it anymore move on to another game. Eventually the abilities are reworked but the damage has been done.

    All of that could have been avoided by removing the temptation and broken nature of powerful racial abilities.

    The lack of a truly useful racial ability, and variation between said skills, will almost never cause someone to outright disregard the validity of a MMO. There are always exceptions, but they would be so far in the minority that it's not worth taking into account, due to what likely amounts to a lack of interest to begin with. The reason I say this is because at the end of the day, different races should be about two things: aesthetics and lore. You should like the way a race looks or the history that supports it is appealing to you. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Having potent racial abilities—ones that aren't menial and insignificant—causes chaos, anger, resentment, jealousy, and imbalances that hinders both the longevity and short term success of a game. Where the absence of them will trigger speculation, suggestions, pipe dreams, and occasionally an extremely disgruntled role player or two, but will not detract from the enjoyment of the game.

    It's a trap.

    Don't do it.
  17. Flunk

    Flunk New Cupcake

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    I like raciels - but if they make one race stronger to PvP or PvE related its a no-go.

    I like how SWTOR handled it, they had some sociale abilities.
  18. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey Guys- FYI- it has more or less been officially confirmed (actually legit official in this thread I'm pretty sure) There are no racial abilities.... the ONLY racial benefit someone gets is on buying gear with stats that would be "assumed to fit them"... This applies to elder game items but, maybe not everything else. So--- Balanced take since there are no real permanent breaking bonus a race gets, just depends how much time or cost you are willing to spend for items.

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