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Raid size: poll

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cesmode, Sep 18, 2013.

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What size should raids be in wildstar?

  1. 10

    21.4%
  2. 15

    11.4%
  3. 20

    49.3%
  4. 25

    20.4%
  5. 40

    63.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    Came here to discuss raid size, and I think 40 man raids are a total nightmare. As someone who tends to manage guilds and raids, 40 man is just... more trouble than it's worth. Just by sheer averages, you're going to be down someone. Between connectivity and RL issues, expect to be 39 manning most of the time. If it's a hard enough fight, expect massive downtime while you wait for the stars to align for 40/40 to be ready to go.

    Not only that, but this game isn't going to have metrics to determine whether or not an individual player is skilled or not right from the start. It's going to take time for a website like WorldofLogs to pop up that allows someone to take an applicant and say conclusively whether or not that person can execute from a distance. Whittling down a raid to a horizontal skill level without these tools becomes a massive ordeal. Recruitment becomes a role that requires at least 4+ recruiters per raid working 2+ hours a day simply to mitigate turnover.

    The raid is so big that there's very little personal interaction too. You will know the big personalities. You'll know the raid leader. He'll be Mike from Canmore. But is he going to know you? There's 40 people, you can't have conversations in voice chat. It's all business, because there just isn't room for everyone to talk. You're not hanging out with a group of friends. You're at a house party and you don't know half the people there, and half the ones you do know, you don't even like. Cliques develop due to the sheer personality void that is the raid, and fights break out left and right. All of it behind the scenes, and all of it undermining the will and direction of the guild as an entity.

    In reality, with the nature of 40 man progression, expect to be part of a 20 man guild. A 20 man guild that co-raids with another guild, simply because actually forming a cohesive 40 man alone isn't working. Expect there to be inter-guild politics which causes the raid to suffer. One guild will have a laid-back but talented raid leader, the other will be aggressive. Expect the aggressive one to want a weaker player out of the raid that is the friend of the other raid leader. Expect that person to be you, because there are so many people that the raid leaders accuracy in measuring failure to be nearly blind.

    People are looking at 40 mans with nostalgia, like it's going to bring back what Vanilla WoW or Everquest felt like. But it's not. You're going to get all of the bad with none of the good.

    I'm planning on running my own guild if I'm lucky enough to get neck-deep in beta. But the reality of the situation concerns me greatly. I managed 2 seperate WoW guilds for 6 years solid with only a 2 month break in the middle, but that pushed me to my absolute limits. That was 25 people. To make 40 work, I will need exponentially more leadership. I was able to make an officer core of 3 work in WoW, but in Wildstar, I'm going to need at least 8-10. I have to find and keep 8-10 capable leaders. 8-10 people that not only can, but will, of their own initiative, analyze and resolve situations involving only other people. I need 1 other raid leader, 1 full time recruiter, and 1 class lead per class. They need to be the absolute best of the best at what they do, and they need to be leaders. Not average guys, but leaders. The type of player I'm looking for is 1 in 100. The type of personality I need is no more than 1 in 20 of those players. I don't know how I can do it. At least not well.

    I don't see 40 man being as fun as 20.
    xerel likes this.
  2. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    You clearly have a limited amount of experience with guilds so I can see where your concerns stem from.

    However, I have personally played in guilds in EverQuest, EverQuest 2, and World of Warcraft with over 80 active members.

    Raid numbers were never an issue because we had a set schedule and communication between members.

    I have led raids in EverQuest with 2 full raids to tackle events. That is 144 people.

    Having an active roster of like-minded individuals working towards a common goal can go a long way. It also helps guild leaders to have a good batch of officers and people designated to handle recruits.

    If you are short on members but have a nice tight-knit group, you can always seek a raid alliance with another small raid guild to tackle the 40 man raids.
    Kataryna and Xlugon Pyro like this.
  3. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    You clearly didn't read what I just wrote, because I just addressed everything you talked about in much greater detail. If you want to respond to something, you might want to consider reading what you respond to.
  4. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Not really and there will be plenty of guilds who can do those 40 man raids without having to form alliances. Just because you have experienced difficulties and don't believe you can handle it, doesn't mean there are a lot of others who can get the job done. Maybe raiding isn't for you.
    Kataryna likes this.
  5. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    You still didn't read what I wrote? Are you serious dude? You've replied twice now to a topic without reading it. Are you going to go 3 times without responding to it? If you want to actually edit your first response with actual content I'll be happy to delete my 2 replies and we can go to a real discussion instead of a dick measuring contest.
  6. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    [​IMG]
  7. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Things are quickly going off topic and into stupid territory. Please, stay on topic and if you can't communicate with each other, then ignore it and continue. No need to be attack each other. </Mod Monocle>
    Kataryna likes this.
  8. Dargenus

    Dargenus Cupcake-About-Town

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    40-man raids seem to be at the border of what is reasonable, and I think that's fine. They're going to be a social and organizational challenge for the powerful guild communities that want them. I will probably want to find myself a small tight-knit group, and do 20-mans and such. I see nothing wrong with having more variety, though, so I voted for everything.
  9. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    Being there seen it all and know just how painful it can be.

    Think having 40 man raids in is fine, it's just not such a clever idea not to have other raids in I.E 10/12/15 man raids, it's better content that's makes raids good not the size of it, unless the raid size becomes a pain to manage then most people don't raid ...and they end up leaving, and that's not good for anyone.

    Stop banging your head m8 some people will only ever see what they want.
    Agreed.
    FearsomeX likes this.
  10. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a valid opinion, backed up by a good write up, but again just an opinion; or is your point that because you do not like 40man Raids that there should not be 40man Raids.
    I’m part of the 65% that primarily solos, so using this logic and my opinion about raids (Not about having raids.), there should be no raids at all; unless you are trying to tell me that your opinion is the only important opinion. Hells, Jeremy stated a few months ago that only 1% of the player base participated in 40man Raids which would be even a better reason for not having 40man Raids, but he also stated that many of the W* Devs were part of the that 1% and liked the 40man Raids and being they are the Devs they are going to have the 40man Raid.

    The W* Devs having this number upfront means that they are not going into the 40man Raid blind, nor are they basing their game on it, thus the other Eldergame options available.
    The easy answer to content you don’t like (When there are other options.), is to not participate in the content you don’t like.
    Kataryna likes this.
  11. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I would also speculate that even with 40 mans, in this day and age we have more people who have raided and at at least somewhat competitive levels compared to the ancient days of 40+ raid sizes. Since more people HAVE raided, more people are aware of it and are interested in it than in the past. I think that, providing raids in WildStar will be compelling and challenging, we WILL see far more people actively raiding 40 man raids percentage-wise than what we saw in classic WoW.

    I knew lots of people who never raided in WoW until WotLK or later and were really skilled players but never got to max level to be able to raid until Blizzard began nerfing leveling heavily towards the end of TBC and consecutive expansions.
  12. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Well, we already know they will be 40 and 20 (and those will be different raids, not different sizes of the same content.)
    Kataryna likes this.
  13. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    That's one of the aspects that make it exciting and the most rewarding. Any high-level team operates with those same pressures (think NFL team or, Apple's iPhone engineering team.)
  14. Zenatsu

    Zenatsu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Going through the pain and grind of getting 40-people online for 3-4 events isn't exciting. It's tedious and aggravating. This stress carries over into the raid, which can bring moral down. Unless you can dissolve the stress/hold it, or somehow spread the stress across multiple people.

    The other side, which is more optimistic, is that you HAVE those 40 players who all get online, maybe even more who can replace those who need to be absent (life stuff). In other words you have the "perfect picture".

    But all in all, my ideology is that gilds will fall under these categories:
    • You have a small pool of "hardcore guilds" since majority of them have all the dedicated players running in 40-mans
    • You have a large pool of "hardcore guilds" since players are spread out doing 20-mans
    • You have more "casual guild" and are able to do 40-mans, but your individual player skill level is sub-par
  15. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Remember, "raiding" isn't the only endgame as it is in WoW... there will be other avenues of progression for all sizes. So Raids don't have to cater to all players. It's up to the player to determine if it's something they want to prioritize their game time into.
    Kataryna likes this.
  16. Zenatsu

    Zenatsu Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is for me. To be honest with myself, It's all I actually care for in an MMO at the end of the day. The rest is just fluff type candy.
  17. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is pretty much true for most players maybe not to the same extent, but most want to raid or try rand at some point.

    The one thing here that's seems to be ignored, ADDING 10/12/15 man raids will not hurt the game, no one going to say I'm leaving or not playing because they have smaller raids in, but it's definitely going to happen the other way around.
    FearsomeX likes this.
  18. Smexist

    Smexist New Cupcake

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    I prefer smaller raid groups for serveral reasons. id say 10-20

    - Better Communication
    - Easier to replace de baddies
    - Easier to plan strategie
    - Less players that can fail
    - Easier to make the raid group

    ETC
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  19. Roenok

    Roenok New Cupcake

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    In my experience there was nothing quite as spectacular for MMOs as 40 man raids in vanilla WoW. I did enjoy 10 man upper blackrock spire runs back when that was what people were first pushing through, and those size raids have an important role to play in building up to the big time.

    I think having the smaller raid groups for less critical dungeons is a good stepping stone for new players to learn, and acquire equipment that will lead to more difficult larger raids. It grants you a place to learn how to play a class properly and work well in a group (assuming you're not a veteran MMO player). Having a welcoming environment for newer players is important. However, I think high end raid groups should be reserved to 40 man groups. 25 at the very least...

    A fully funcational 40 man raid group that has worked together fluidly and sorted out all of their kinks can be one of the most enjoyable experiences from both a social and gameplay standpoint.

    I just hope to have the time to do such a thing nowadays.
  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I won't ignore it. Answer is easy though.

    Creating multiple size versions of the same raid cuts into developer time substantially. Mechanics have to be retooled along with other difficulty parameters to make the encounters as similar as possible. There's also modifying loot tables to make them raid-size appropriate and various numerical adjustments that need to be made for additional raid sizes.

    I'd rather see dev time spent on making a single raid the best it can be as opposed to having to accommodate multiple raid sizes first so they can push it out the door in a timely manner.
    Kataryna and Jabberwocky like this.
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