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Raid size speculation

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Nexrus, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    If the game is truly like that, I'd be over the moon.

    Who isn't tired of grinding some instance 100 times over, then one day you carry some guy who's totally clueless, and the epic loot drops.. you know the rest ;)
  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I love the "Everyone's Super" video... I really feel that was something that has contributed to the "meh" feeling I've been having with what WoW became, and also honestly the "meh" feeling I've had with some other MMO titles recently.

    Oh course all this can be analyzed and talked about till the cows come home, but that single video clip from Incredibles sums it up perfectly for me... >.>

    I will also say though that another design they have made in WoW is making it very inaccessible for new players now. If you try to play the game now as a brand new player, all you see is a bunch of people running around in heirlooms as you level up who can do so much more than you.

    They zoom through every dungeon in their heirloom gear without even stopping for a second. They pull entire rooms and don't even wait a second before a boss battle to discuss anything you might need to do.

    Then when you finally hit cap, suddenly you have raids to grind and gear gates to fit through and nothing is explained to you. If you do just decide to randomly plow through dungeon finders and grind up gear and stuff, you might get into a nice raid group, but it's kind of a difficult barrier to break through and there's no real "training" on how to behave in raids until you are thrown into an end level one.

    On top of that, if you enjoy PvP, well you're in for an even rougher ride. Heirlooms and twinks are worse than they've ever been, and for a new player, you basically get laughed at as people one shot you. When you finally get to level cap in PvP, the gear discrepancy is so large that you can look forward to countless battles of being able to do basically nothing and losing every single fight you enter as you slowly grind up for gear.

    It's amazing to me honestly how they have managed to make a game so easy you can play solo content in your sleep, and so inaccessible and "elite" to new players that people probably have a hard time sticking around if they are new players.

    I think that's why the subscription numbers are behaving as they are. It's hard to get people to want to leave because they are so powerful, and all their alts are so powerful as well... they can bring in friends or family too and help them to make them quickly powerful... but anyone who is new just can't break in, and when people leave, they pull with them friends and family as well.

    Anyway I don't have an awesome TL;DR video to go with all that, but I just hope that WildStar's raiding scene allows for a challenge and bringing communities together, but it doesn't turn players into these massively decked out levels of exclusion some games lean to as time goes on when they start messing with people's alts and the leveling up experience of a game.
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  3. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    @ Patrician funny you should mention that in your post, just had a friend go back to WoW because he missed the raiding days. He's a pretty good player (World top 100 raiding experience back in ye olde WotLK days) but when I asked him how the levelling was going he mentioned instances being a 'blur where I just kill <REDACTED> and have no clue what's going on as groups rush through it'.
    Made me chuckle and remember the heroic speed runs we used to do and look at it from the point of view of a new player in the group.

    @Others remarking on the hostility/negativity these days it seems viewpoints have changed from the 'I'm happy with what I have' to 'I'm upset at what others have that I don't'. Instead of focusing on the positive (you're getting content you like) people prefer to QQ over content they don't like/want being included because they feel that in some way reduces their fun (be that a valid arguement or not).
    I'll end that by saying 'I remember when all this were nowt but fields and we worked 32 hours a day, 12 days a week in t' pit for a living!' :D (taking the piss out of myself for being old and cynical for the non Brits who probably won't get the reference).
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  4. Gazimoff

    Gazimoff Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was a hardcore raider in World of Warcraft. I participated in server firsts, and was one of the best players for my class on the server for PvE content.

    I charged through Molten Core, which was simple and straightforward. I battled through Blackwing Lair, which was only slightly more complicated. I surged through Ahn'Quiraj, which was more of a gear check (apart from C'Thun).

    And then we hit a wall with the original incarnation of Naxxaramas. We fought against the challenges as best we could, but the fights were tuned on a knife-edge. Unless you had top-quality gear and all the consumables you could muster, you weren't going to succeed. Everyone took personal responsibility to make sure they were playing their best, 6 nights a week. It was hard work, and we never managed to clear the place.

    Nowadays, raiding is simpler. The fights aren't as complex or as tightly tuned. Anyone can be a hero. Throw yourself into Looking for Raid, and you can experience all the bossfights with 24 random strangers.

    Has changing the number of people made raiding more or less accessible? It's arguable either way - it certainly helped low-population servers. But LFR did far more - now any Joe with a sword can log in and slay internet dragons.

    So why all the history?

    I'm trying to make a point. The size of the raid has little to do with the difficulty level. It also has little to do with atmosphere - a skilled designer can make Kharazan feel full of wonder and hidden treasures, or make Naxxaramas feel like a monolithic crypt.

    Group size has more to do with how you want to feel as an individual. Do you want to feel like part of a small band of heroes creeping into a forbidden castle, or part of a small army that's come to seek vengeance from a powerful foe? Personally, I'm happy with both, but I understand that there are some that feel one way or another.

    The point is, your opinion of content doesn't make it good or bad. It just makes it more or less appealing to you as an individual. That doesn't make someone else's opinion wrong.

    Should all content be accessible to everyone?

    No. I suck at most forms of PvP these days, particularly those that rely on reaction time instead of tactical manoeuvres. I don't like arena PvP, but I did enjoy Wintergrasp and Alterac Mountains. Heck, I even enjoy Planetside 2 because there is room for tactical play and organisation.

    But do I complain if my favourite forms of PvP aren't included? No. It's just a side-dish to me, one part of a larger game. And that's the important thing to remember here. With a limited amount of development time available, Carbine can only implement certain things, and your particular variance might not be one of them. What is important is that there is enough in the game in total for you to want to keep playing - enough ways for you to find fun. Fixating on one single feature isn't the way to do that.
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  5. Mosene

    Mosene Cupcake

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    Bla bla bla please tell us more about PVP gear and how it will be best in all aspects of the game pls, no time for raiding, sense of achievement should come from skill not 8 hours per day invested in a game.Nowadays MMOs realise that Classic WoW messed up badly by making PVE gear the best in PVP too and introduced a dedicated stat, I want to see this along with ratings that will prevent PVErs and bad PVPers to obtain anything more than mediocre gear.
  6. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    TESO won't have a PvP stat on any gear, and I hope Wildstar won't either.

    More to the point of this thread, I'm hoping Carbine does experimental things with raids while they're going ahead with resurrecting the 40-mans. Like having the raid make a choice between splitting up and tackling two small encounters at once or taking on the next challenges as a large group as fast as possible.
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  7. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    <Admin Hat> Guys, things almost went a little uncivil in the middle of this thread but has recovered since. Please keep it on track (as there's a lot of good PoV's in here) and friendly or it will be closed </Admin Hat>
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  8. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    The last time I actively raided was when WoW still had 40 mans and I was still pretty new to raiding at that time, so I'm definitely less experienced than some here. I like Gazimoff's band of heroes analogy and thinking back I probably enjoyed ZG and AQ20 more so than BWL and even MC. :p

    As far as content being accessible to everyone goes, it's tough to make everyone happy but from what I have read and experienced with Arkship, I think Carbine will reach a good medium or at least I hope so.
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  9. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    I've seen, in several posts here, that people are being accused of making a demand of Carbine. It's not a "demand" to ask for smaller raids. It's not a "demand" to be acknowledged and to ask for representation. It's called, asking. And, I don't feel there has been a great deal of respect on these forums for people who enjoy smaller raids and are asking for Carbine to include them. What there is a lot of is, "If you don't like it - find another game to play." And, "Tough luck, my opinion is that all games which accommodate smaller guilds and make content more accessible suck." Well, to you they suck. To. You. To others, they don't.

    I read a great piece in Entertainment Weekly yesterday by Lisa Schwarzbaum, who has been writing movie reviews for EW for the last 19 years. She's retiring. And she had quite a lot to say about people who sent her nasty letters for disagreeing with her opinions. But, she said something I think is quite apropos:

    "My part of the conversation is to use my own experience, analytic ability, aesthetic understanding, points of reference, writing skills, and -lucky me!-EW platform to explain how I come, to say, adore the Lord of the Rings trilogy... Your mission is to read with an open mind, and use the places where we diverge as inspiration for an ongoing conversation about this ever changing medium we love together."

    It's not "butt hurt" to have an opinion. We all love video games, or we wouldn't be here. And we all have experiences and personalities which make us more inclined to love some things over other things. But, just because for the last 15 or so posts, there is a consensus that raiding needs to be one way, isn't because anyone in here is more "right" than the next person. It doesn't have to be your experience that raiding in smaller guilds is more enjoyable. The point is not to make people enjoy things differently. The point is to validate the various opinions that DO in fact exist.

    And my opinion is thus - Warcraft is failing (losing subs) because it is a decade old game. Since it's creation, games with better technology have been conceived. Furthermore, how long can players be expected to stay in the same fantasy world? Not just one that is aging - but one that begins to have the, "Yes, I'm so familiar with Azeroth and the Horde and the Alliance at this point, they no longer hold the mystery they once did." Warcraft has been exhausted by players not, as many people here are arguing, just because Blizzard catered to a more casual audience. It's been exhausted because there's only so much that can be done within a fantasy world before the audience loses interest. It happens with fantasy book series all the time.

    There are so many factors when it comes to making an ideal MMO. Most of them are opinions based on experience. And since we're not all journeying an MMO mile in other peoples shoes, can we at least be a little more accepting of those differences than, "Tough, find another game to play"? Cause chances are, you're not going to agree with everything that is being said here or implemented in game, and there will come a time when you want your opinion to matter too.
    Hope, Liris, Ingsoc and 1 other person like this.
  10. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Back to the actual topic, I hope we see different tiers of raiding. Not of the same dungeon, but different enough so that the leaderboards will show the most skillful guild rather than the best geared one. While I'm looking forward to 40 mans the most and prefer raiding that way, I'm excited to see what Carbine can do with 20 mans or 10 mans or whatever they implement
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  11. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    Yes, I'm also curious, like I've previously mentioned, how they'll do raiding progression. Whether it'll be the 20 man raid to the 40 man raid or if it'd completely separate function in some function. Also a good question if some raids will be directly related in some way, at least in terms of tier progression.

    Also, what about how they'll handle tier progression. Do you prefer the current WoW method of continuous content turnover where a new tier replaces the old one or rather the vanilla WoW progression of completing content in a set tier path? Or maybe each tier be separate in some fashion? I'm really curious how they'll handle it.
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  12. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am honestly hoping it returns to a vanilla structure of actual progression between tiers, requiring players to complete each raid before moving on. I feel that a vertical path for gear progression is necessary in order to achieve a carrot on a stick mentality, so that players feel they always have something to work towards.

    I want a sense of journey to return to the mmo genre, and hopefully wildstar can capture that.
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  13. Gempulse

    Gempulse Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree, similar to how you had to complete Karazhan (10-man) Gruuls Lair (25) and Magtheridons' Lair (25) to be sufficiently geared enough to move onto the much more difficult t5 content. Players then had to complete the t5 content, which was no easy task, to move onto t6 content; which was even more difficult.

    You had to have a good understanding of each preceding raid in order to move onto the next raid and the progression from one raid to the next felt almost tangible.
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  14. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have no problem with there being 40 man content people clearly want it , my issue is that if all you really wanted was to be able to do 40 man raids you would have no problem with it being the same content with the same rewards. If all you really want is 40 man epic feel you wouldn't have problem with 20 mans getting the exact same cake at a half size portion.
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  15. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I'm a weird sort of purist when it comes to story and content presentation.

    It's not that I don't want others to be able to see the content, I definitely do. I just believe that "seeing the content" means doing so as it was originally designed. Any "versions" of it, larger or smaller, are an adjustment to the original idea, so presumably that design best represented the designer's view of how to tell that particular story.

    It's an out-there pov, I know... but, that's my brain :)
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  16. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    So there should be 0 reward for grouping an additional 20 people together to do something? Not saying that 20 mans can't get the same gear, but honestly do you really believe getting an additional 20 people together should not be rewarded in some way?
  17. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well no that goes completely against the premise that the reward for 40 man content is you like doing 40 man content it's where it crosses the line from I just like doing 40 man because it's epic to I like 40 man because it makes me feel more leet and wanting tangible ways of showing it...
  18. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I understand what your saying, but to be honest if someone disagrees with you what do you really expect them to do? Lie? If they firmly believe what they believe, they're not going to back down, just like you won't either.

    And in fairness, its Carbine themselves that has essentially given the 'like it or leave it' idea, in less harsh terms:

    Gaffney:
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  19. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    For me, I'd rather both 20/40 Raids give same types of rewards, but with different focuses suitable for the challenges in each - perhaps 40's are more AoE centric so the armour drops give something towards that, whereas 20's perhaps have more status effects so their drops give better protection to that. Yet both give the same armour values.
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  20. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hadn't seen that quote, and honestly that really made my day.
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