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Raid size speculation

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Nexrus, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    I think it all depends on how challenging the content is. Most MMO's have at least one really easy boss that can be completed by a pick-up-group with minimal difficulty. Do I feel there should be an increase in reward just for inviting 20 extra people? No. However, there is something to be said about having 40 raiders defeat a boss that requires coordination and near perfection from each person.

    Also, while I agree that a primary reason for doing 40-man content should be that you like 40-man raiding, this is not a good enough reward by itself for most people. A big portion of "hardcore progression guilds" will choose whatever method that allows for the best progression. It is generally agreed that larger raids are a bigger hassle to organize. So, doesn't it make sense that if loot was the same for each raid size, raiding guilds would focus on whichever size was easiest first. Naturally this would allow for the most loot to go out to the most players, prior to starting the challenging content.

    I believe Carbine has already stated that raids will not be shared by multiple raid sizes. (20 man raids will be entirely different than 40 mans) I think this is a good step to reduce the loot complaints. However, I'm still interested to see whether this will translate to all 40-mans being harder than all 20-mans, and how this impacts loot distribution.

    That said, this thread is about raid size, not loot. I'd suggest we make a new thread if we want to discuss the best ways to distribute loot in raids.
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  2. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    Of course I don't expect people to lie. But there's a fine line between sharing an opinion and forcing people to choke on it because if they don't like it - tough. One way is tact and respectful conversation that doesn't demean the people who have differing opinions. It requires using experience/information. Some people here have expressed their opinions this way. The other way is to demean peoples opinions that we do not agree with by concluding they're inferior in order to make our own opinions seem superior. Some people here have chosen to express themselves this way. It's this I'm talking about.

    I'm done with this part of the conversation in this thread. It's been beaten quite sufficiently. And most of us, including myself, would like to be done with it. Being respectful going forward isn't a bad thing.

    On another note...

    Carbine, as far as I am concerned, has offered some very mixed messages with regards to their design philosophy. One - which circulates these forums regularly is the, "Play it your way," mentality. Carbine has stated repeatedly they want the game to appeal to a wide audience. And yet, I've seen quotes from Wildstar devs (unfortunately I do not file and catalog everything they say) where they've said they don't expect their end-game to be for everyone. So, which is it? Because both are very conflicting design philosophies/goals.
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  3. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I love that quote by Gaffney. It sums up why I want to play WildStar. If a developer doesn't make a game that HE wants to play... why make a game at all?
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  4. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    The funny thing here is that you already answered your question. They want the game, as a whole, to appeal to a wide audience by having a lot of content and features that might appeal to them. One as aspect of this happens to be large raids that could be 20 or 40 man to appeal to those who would like this content. This may not appeal to some people, but hey, there's all this other content that might. They did not say that every piece of content and every feature is designed to appeal to a wide audience. So in regards to the "Which is it?" question, they are doing precisely like they said. You just seem to be reading into it oddly, from how I understand it.
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  5. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    Ditto. Cause that's not what I'm seeing at all. To each their own.
  6. Ingsoc

    Ingsoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/06/the-biggest-game-on-the-planet-wildstars-boundless-ambition/

    I agree with Auryn; it feels to me as though Carbine is sending mixed signals.

    They want to have the biggest game on the planet. In order to do that, they are going to have to compete with World of Warcraft, a game that has spent the last 6 years making their raid content progressively more accessible to small groups.

    Carbine doesn't want to impose the team's will on the game, but they are promoting their 40-player raids exclusively to the gaming press. We are lucky to have advance knowledge of the smaller, 20-player raid size thanks to Zap-Robo and David Bass.

    Carbine appears to be drawing a line in the sand, where on one side they believe players want to experience big, epic, competitive raids, and on the other side are solo-players who desire story advancement. What I believe they are missing is the huge demographic of players who fall in the middle of those two extremes.

    If they want to have the biggest game on the planet, they cannot afford to take a hardline, niche approach to endgame raiding. The current biggest game on the planet figured that out 6 years ago.
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  7. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    I would definitely put more stock into Carbine's own articles rather than what is released through the media. With press articles we can't know for sure what was said and what the writers chose to feature. 40 man raids in an article probably sounds a lot more enticing than 20 mans to the average reader. :p

    Anyways, hopefully this uplink analysis which was published last year will alleviate some concerns. :)

    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/uplink_analysis_raid_sizes.php
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  8. Hope

    Hope Cupcake-About-Town

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    You skipped a pretty important piece from that same article! :p
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  9. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    "We want everyone to be able ... " Yes, you are able to do 40 men content. The problem is people don't want too. That is a whole different matter.
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  10. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    I didn't want to quote the whole article! :p But yeah it's a good read concerning group content. :)
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  11. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Huh, I'm getting kind of one signal from all the quotes you listed. They want to be the biggest game ever, so they are appealing to both solo players and the 40 man raiders, and EVERYONE in between.

    Honestly didn't we already hear mention they are also working on a 20 man raid experience as well? I thought that was in one of the reveals from Arkship?

    So you have a design team that not only wants to develop constant updates to solo play, something that WoW has NOT figured out how to do well... and you've got a developer that wants to bring back 40 man raid content, something WoW decided wasn't a good focus for their time.

    I don't see many mixed signals or messages here. I just see a developer who wants to release a game that appeals to everyone. If they are focusing each extreme (solo, and then massive raiding) I don't think they'll be silly enough to completely ignore everything in between anyway. ^^

    That's the impression I've got from them lately, anyway. Maybe if you and others haven't they just need to be clearer or something.
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  12. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's exactly the impression I've been getting. It's why I've been getting hyped about the game.
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  13. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    I must admit - I can't really see mixed signals in what they're saying either.

    They are making raid content available if you like raids.
    (Great for raiders)

    They are innovating the solo engame arena.
    (Great for soloers)

    They have Warplots and Battlegrounds
    (Great for the instanced PvP crowd)

    We know they have dungeons (with expert mode for level cap).
    (Great for the smaller group focused players)

    At this stage the roleplayers/open world PvP crowd/crafters might be entitled to say something but looks like they're catering to a wide spread, not alienating people? Hopefully the RP crowd/open world PvP crowd and crafters will get some love in upcoming announcements.

    I could be misinterpreting it of course but just putting down how it reads to me in case that helps.
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  14. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I'm also a bit confused why people seem to think 40 man raids take so much time. I was doing them back in the good ol' days of WoW and I raided a couple hours Tuesday night, a couple hours Thrusday night, and then for a longer period on Saturdays (Maybe 4-5 hours on Saturdays? Depending on how long people were willing to go and what plans everyone had).

    Of course we weren't a top "competitive" group in regards to how fast we got everyone geared up, but we all saw the content offered and my Paladin got fully decked out in all the tiers... We weren't even a full guild, we were an alliance of Roleplaying guilds.

    And the funny thing is, more and more alliances like ours were cropping up all the time. Then WoW announced they were throwing out 40 mans, so people stopped... but I think there were more and more options building slowly to allow more people to see that stuff.

    From the way I hear it, 25 mans or 10 mans or 15 or whatever... well you can spend as long as you want grinding those too. It's not like they are more accessible to people because of size. It's just because WoW began building more streamlined versions of systems and grouping into their game as they developed the game.

    I mean, if you are a solo player with limited time... and you also want to see raid content... and the only content available is a 40 man raid... well come on, trust me, there are way over 39 other people on your server JUST like you. If you want to, you could easily try to just get enough of those like-minded people and go do the content.

    But all this is moot anyway as I'm pretty sure they announced some 20 man content they are working on, so people can have that too. I dunno, I think sometimes I just get confused by what people focus on when debating things online. Maybe I'm just a weird person, but when I desperately want to do something, I just find a way to do it.
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  15. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think this is just more due to it being exponentially harder to gather people of similar mindsets as raid size increases.
    Completely disregarding any skill based arguements in my WoW experiences which highlight what I mean:

    TBC - Top 50 guild, almost no 'downtime' in 25 man raids. Wipe recovery was fast, everyone knew what they were doing without needing explanations, almost no mid raid afk's and any taken were generally in times where it wouldn't slow the raid down. (my raiding heaven tbh).

    WotLK - Top 200 guilds, 10 man raids similar to the TBC experience. 25 man raids - longer wipe recovery (raid leader generally had to prod the odd person to run back/buff etc), sometimes needed to stop and explain fights/clarify roles, some afk's mid raid occassionaly halting progress completely (beofre/after boss pulls etc).

    Pick up raiding on alts - even on 10 man raids there would be frequent afks, stop before almost every boss to explain fights, wipe recovery would take an age. 25 man or higher raids would increase all of these delays as more people needed to afk (and not bother coordinating to afk together), explanations required more time, more people to unnecessarily res in wipes and so on.

    That's excluding any skill based factors as I've played with people with a skill level equal to any top guild player yet who think nothing of making/taking a phone call just before we're due to pull a boss or going to cook when we're at the "1% wipe - next try we'll get him" stage (something akin to madness in my view lol).

    If you're playing with people of similar mindset then raids probably seem to go at the perfect pace (people who tend to afk a lot probably don't mind others taking the same approach whereas they'd probably find a raid full of 'progression hungry' players to be mad prioritising a raid in a game over other things).

    TLDR: As raid size increases it's harder to fill the raid with people of similar playstyle/mentality and differing playstyles lead to the perception of delays.

    That's my take on it anyway - as always I could be horribly wrong :D

    Edit: I stuck the guild raid rankings there as an indicator of 'like minded individuals present' type thing ie a higher ranked raiding guild tended to have an easier time of filling the raid with similar minded people, a pickup raid had little influence over the players mindsets. Hope that makes sense.
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  16. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I do get that, I suppose. I think I was both lucky in raiding with people who shared a similar mindset, and also I'm someone who doesn't care overmuch about progression "speed" as I was just having fun with the people.

    It still didn't have to take as long as people seem to think, though, I feel. The barrier of entry also wasn't as high as people tend to seem to believe either, I think. Besides, that was the vanilla raiding system. If WoW decided tomorrow to bring back 40 man raids, I bet the ENTIRE system would be infinitely more streamlined and vastly different.

    But I still hold our a firm belief that if you build it, they will come. If WoW had not shortened their raid size way back when, I think that people today would have all experienced 40-man raid content. I think that systems would have been invented over time to make that experience more accessible to others, and alliances would have formed when guilds only had 20 or so people in them.

    I would embrace any content size however they decide to do, and come release, if there are 40 mans and a couple 20 mans and a couple 5 man dungeons, I'll want to do all of them if I can at some point. ^^
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  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Its about how you interpret 'something for everyone'. Does that mean there is a raid for everyone, or does that mean there is simple some type of endgame content for everyone? I think its very clear it's the latter.

    Gaffney when asked about raid sizes:
    Ingsoc:
    Yes WoW has made things more and more accessible, but has this actually turned out good for them? Almost there entire playerbase was built when the game took a much more hardcore approach to raiding, its only when they started to go more and more casual that the growth stopped.
  18. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I agree, and this is a fact I think many folks overlook! As a designer you always have to evaluate your designs, but sometimes you have to believe the reason you made them in the first place is the right one.
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  19. Bantheera

    Bantheera Cupcake

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    With telegraphs implemented in Wildstar, and of course in the Raid content, wouldn't a 40 man raid be less of a hassle logistically speaking? The boss encounters would then be more intuitive of sorts, rather then only relying on the explicit knowledge of tactics. If this is the case, then I am sure a larger number of people would wan't to try it out, making it easier to find a group for that content. I remember a dev. from Wildstar explaining that people would be able to do the raid content, without waiting for the largest and toughest guilds to take down the hardest bosses and upload a video of that encounter for people to mirror their every move.

    As a side note, I would love seeing Alliances of multiple guilds, being implemented as an actual feature, rather than people 'unofficially' banding together in alliances.
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  20. Zinn

    Zinn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Telegraphing is not new in raids. It is used quite extensively in other games.

    What you are talking about with guilds not using videos is what Gaffney talked about recently with random scripts. Where scripts might change for boss fights. It was hope that people could kill bosses without relying on watching videos. But he has later said that might not be possible or realistic.

    The problem with the changing scripts is its pretty much impossible to make an encounter challenging for a top raid guild and have it be killable by a casual or good guild. That IMO will never work. I think they could certainly put in a few random script bosses that were not challenging. But unless they having different difficulty modes I don't see how it can be done.

    In regards to people watching videos i agree its better to make strats on your own. But, I don't think its all bad as it has become a form of policing and keeping top guilds honest. Where now many top guilds uses Twitch streams of their raids so everyone can see everything is legit. In that sense I think its a good thing as its becoming a form of self policing.

    I do like your alliance idea. I think DAOC was the last game I can think of where alliances were used well.
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