Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Nexrus, Feb 22, 2013.
AION has this system, with all the tools you'd expect to manage it. Works great.
More people raiding makes it easier to find people for your guild, but I don' think it stops people from being late or going to the bathroom in combat. Wrangling a large number of players is always hard.
As to the larger question, I have to ask why the 40 man has gone away in the first place. There is a reason behind it.
I haven't personally played AION, but I was thinking of Eve online, which i have played.
There will always be a number of people who will do this, it's not like you can force people not going to the bathroom. I agree that it is still harder to organize with a greater number of people, but that is in it-selves gives a feeling of accomplishment in my opinion.
I am sorry, but WoW's population certainly did not peak during Vanilla when raiding was at it's most hardcore, or even during Burning Crusade when it was "more hardcore" than it is today. I appreciate that you have your opinions, but trying to invalidate mine by saying that WoW built "almost their entire player base" during Vanilla is simply not accurate.
A detailed discussion of WoW's population metrics over time is off-topic and beyond the scope of this thread, so I will leave it at that.
It feels as though any critical reception of announced features or game design is wholly unwelcome here, at least, as it relates to Elder Game. Yet I thought those were the kinds of things Carbine wants to know. The good as well as the bad, what are you most looking forward to and what are you most concerned about.
Isn't it better to voice concerns and ask questions about an announced feature, then to say nothing and be unsatisfied with it when the Elder Game comes out? How does it help the game if we do that?
Believe it or not, I'm as big of a fan of this game as anybody else.
Whether or not 40 man raids take more time is a non-issue for me. I consider myself a hard-core raider. I spend ridiculous amounts of time learning how to play my class and running the hardest level of content that is available to my preferred guild size. Here are my concerns with 40-man raids (This isn't directed at Patrician, but everyone here):
1. 40-man raids are coercing players into social environments that do not respect the way they socialize.
My main concern with 40 man raids is being coerced into a social environment I don't enjoy. And I know there are a significant number of people who feel very similarly. Note that I said "coerced" and not "forced." No one is forcing me to do anything. But, the mere existence of 40 man raids is an attempt to coerce players who enjoy raiding and have up to this point preferred it with smaller guilds, into joining larger guilds where the highest tier of content becomes accessible. The problem is, lots of people don't enjoy participating in large guilds.
Just because we're not seeing more people posting this opinion in these threads doesn't mean they don't exist - it's just indicative of the fact that socializing, especially about controversial topics, isn't something they enjoy to begin with. Much like socializing in large guild environments where people have a tendency to talk over one another isn't enjoyable for them either. Look at the poll results for yesterday. Look to see who voted for the different size raids. Do you see the majority of people who wanted smaller raids than 40 posting in here? No. And those that are posting in here are posting fewer and further between than the majority who want 40 mans. This is because they don't like social chaos to begin with. And the tone of this thread has, at times, been downright nasty. <--- This pervades large guilds too. Conflicting personalities, as we are demonstrating so well, tend to create problems in social environments.
And what we end up with is mob mentality. The most vocal people - the ones who don't shy away from conflict or differing opinions and aren't indicative of the majority - flock together and with their voices drown out those who would disagree with them. It's the adage, "Your bark is bigger than your bite." In other words, these "conversations" often turn into shouting matches. And those people who didn't agree with being thrust into an environment where the conflicting personalities shout at each other, simply choose not to participate. They go run 10 man raids to be away from this type of engagement. They go vote on polls or otherwise participate in threads that aren't so controversial.
This extends to guilds. And while representation for 40 mans has been excellent, it's not representative of all the player base or even the majority. (As the majority of participants in the poll so far have chosen combinations under 40.) What this thread demonstrates, is people who are in favor of 40-man are people who enjoy socializing and are socializing.
2. Coercing players to participate in an environment they don't enjoy (larger guilds) or being forced to wear the label "not as skilled" is a mechanic which fosters and reinforces negative attitudes of players towards other players. It is detrimental to community.
Players all ready bring their values from the real world into games and subject players to discrimination, racism, bigotry, and other forms of harassment without games adding a mechanic which encourages this. This thread is a superlative example. Several times I have seen people infer that people who enjoy smaller social environments aren't as skilled. That is so, so far from the truth. I have take part in the elitist, hard-core guilds that were 10 man and 25 man and everything in between. I've born witness to the "skill" in this atmosphere. Raid size, in my experience, has absolutely nothing to do with skill. I've seen players in 25 mans stand in fire too. Which brings me to my next concern...
3. Larger raid sizes are going to need to accommodate for more "screw-ups", and this could be very damaging to the "challenging" content most of us want in this game.
Notice I said, "could be." It's possible Wildstar could nail it right on the head and provide exactly the level of challenge Vanilla WoW fans are looking for. But, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm mostly concerned that the raid size is going to result in raids that are so easy my dog could sit on my keyboard and loot would drop. To say tuning is a problem that would be exclusive to Wildstar would be wrong. It's a problem everywhere. And I know many of us would agree that modern MMOs are failing at creating challenge. I just feel that 40 man raids add an entirely new dimension of tuning, where tuning has all ready been a problem. Does it mean I don't think they shouldn't try 40 man raids and be scared to do it? Nope. Innovation is awesome. Nostalgia is awesome. But concern is warranted.
4. Is Carbine biting off more content creation than they can chew?
This isn't a "new" view point. In fact, Ingsoc brought it up. And I know others are worried about it too, but in different ways. 40 mans raids are going to provide different content than 20 man raids. I agree that it's exciting that we won't simply be grinding the same content. So, before anyone jumps on the repetitiveness and accuses me of saying I enjoy grinding the same content over and over - I don't. But, I AM worried that Carbine won't be able to keep up with content creation and that the dynamic raid system they're looking to implement is largely aimed at satisfying the need to not push raids out as frequently - because they'll be designing entirely fresh experiences for both sizes. It's a new way to tackle the issue. And it might be successful. Who knows? I don't. And while I hate repetitiveness, I'd personally (note this is my opinion) rather grind a shared raid (both 20 man and 40 man) and have new raids come at a quicker pace.
I still think Wildstar has some very conflicting design goals and they seem to be a result of the different personalities at Carbine. I've been looking for the article I read last week where one of the developers was described as being sort of frustrated by raiding and didn't want to focus on the subject as much as he wanted to talk about elder game crafted for the solo player. I think this is reflective of our community. And I hope that someone at Carbine sees a need for smaller raids a reflects this as well. We'll see.
I'm happy they're trying to work the kinks out and that they are listening to the community.
I only feel the need to state two things currently. One, some people have apparently understood "our goal is to have the biggest game on the planet" to mean "we want as many subscribers as WoW." I understood it to mean "we want to have the most content." That they literally want to have the biggest game, which is why all of Gaffney's commentary on layered content makes so much sense. Two, whenever someone mentions the decline of WoW I believe it makes their argument less agreeable. Has it seen a decline in subscription numbers since its last expansion release? Yes, as it has many times over its existence, it still has over 9 million people logging in to play though. Its decline, and most certainly its "death," has been extremely exaggerated.
<Admin Hat> Okay, I hate to have to do this but content in this thread has continued to skirt the edges of civility and sometimes slide over it. I asked you all to keep it nice. You haven't.
I've come to dread this thread when it popped up on New Posts, and I feel it has run it's course - no new opinions are being offered in any event. Let's not have a civil war here based on preferred raid sizes, folks!
I recommend all interested parties vote in this poll, and if you have a point of view to post there, do it very carefully.
Thread locked. </Admin Hat>