Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cananh, Mar 12, 2014.
if we promise to behave, can you lock it anyway?
I think what the OP wanted to know all along was if the other types of progression can be a long term, non-casual alternative and not just function as a stepping stone to raiding.
For PvP it is probably safe to assume it will be a type of progress independent from raiding but the question is how long it will take to get the best rewards. It has already been stated that PvP gear will be around 80% effective for PvE and vice versa. The question is really how challenging it will be to get the best PvP rewards and if that challenge can even come close to raiding in terms of time and commitment required and therefore give equally powerful rewards.
Even more interesting is the question about solo/small group content. Will this only serve as an introduction to raiding with every raider already as a prerequisite having the best solo and small group gear or will there be the option to progress in this way for a longer time, eventually obtaining reputation rewards and similar which have some of the highest base stats in the game and beats raid gear for solo play?
Personally, I would be happy to play the game if it was possible to build an interesting and balanced non-raiding character with a combination of powerful reputation epics, grind based rewards, PvP rewards, gold medal rewards from the highest five man dungeons, ultra rare world drops etc if this actually required a considerable amount of time and wasn't just a "casual progression", that is, a stepping stone to raiding and something every motivated player could finish in a few weeks time.
For example, imagine a reputation based piece of "solo gear". This piece had the by far highest base stats of any item and in that respect beat the raiding gear. That would make me motivated.
I think this is what this entire discussion comes down to. If non-raiding progression is more "casual" with clearly worse rewards than raiding even when the 80% overlap is considered. So far there are strong indications that this will be the case but it's not 100% certain so I guess this thread will continue as new information becomes available.
What the OP wants is his preferred playstyle to give the 'best rewards'...whatever that means. Progression in solo, dungeons, adventures has been confirmed. But apparently that's not enough if there's -also- progression in raiding. For some reason having raid progression somehow invalidates all the other forms of progression.
I don't understand where his argument comes from to begin with. The article linked doesn't say raids give the 'best gear', it says it gives 'the best gear for raiding'. Gear specifically designed for raiding. Why in the world do you want or need such gear if you're not raiding? At the risk of angering the mods and getting the thread locked (you all can thank me later =c), it seems to me the OP just wants to complain for the sake of complaining.
Considering the half assed negative opinions on other matters this seems likely.
Yet another tragically obvious false accusation.
Unlike the bullying raid crowd here, I'm not demanding anything. I've asked for clarification about what Wildstar's end-game is so I can make a purchase decision. If it's not to my liking then I'll toss it aside and never think of it again.
It hasn't escaped my attention that fewer and fewer games are catering to your crowd. GW2 is inarguably one of the most successful MMOs of the past decade. No raids. I'm less up-to-date on the ESO but from what I can tell it doesn't have them either. Everquest Next definitely doesn't.
See the trend?
While bullying forum goers who have a different opinion to you does effectively stifle discussion and that may appear to serve your ends in the short term, ultimately you're shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm sure this thread will eventually be locked. Moderators tend to do that before simply banning the problem forum members. But I'm unconcerned. It has to suck for the raiders who can engage in civilised discussion and disagreement but developers have very little incentive to cater to a tiny minority of players who create so much hostility and negativity.
Which is why you made the remarks about raiders and how solo content gets the short end of the stick right?
Gw2 isn't either in retention or monetarily. the only thing Gw2 is amazing at is handling pr. Eso does have Raid like encounters, but coming from a team who states with a strait face "What pve players really want is for the game to be more like pvp" and "Grouping up to take down big bosses isn't Elder Scrolls." along with piles and piles of other semi retarded garbage its no surprise.
2 high end mmo's make a trend now? You would have had far more luck listing the far more numerous indy titles that don't have raids (but do cater to your demographic!) in an attempt to get your point across, but alas you were defeated by your own ignorance. Perhaps you should be asking the question as to why big titles go out of their way to include and cater to the audience rather than try an connect dots that aren't there.
Playing the victim is low. Stop it. You aren't one and its a <REDACTED>ty trolling tactic.
If that were the case then devs would never include pvp since it fosters it through design. Shame Online is such a problem that so many things that pvpers tend to make the claim to hate are required otherwise people wouldn't play. Not to mention the prevalence of empowering gameplay which has been shown to turn your average player into a "leet".
Not to mention your needlessly negative diatribes on just about everything. No Carbine is not the devil, out to lie and steal. Are they saints, not even close, but this Machiavellian bs you keep putting forth is sad. Stop it.
All in all, seeing the OP's post....I think we can all agree that it was made upon some false assumptions on his/her part.
False assumptions which didn't came through (ofcourse). They didn't lied, you just had different thoughts by that statement.
Now let's have some
And blow stuff up!
This wasn't an attempt to break the negative spiral in which this thread was going
I think that regardless of how balanced Carbine makes the gear, there will always be those that want and demand what others have so unless they get the same exact item someone else has earned (without extending same effort)- it is never balanced in their mind.
Even if the strikethrough is not warranted for the solo playstyle, these complainers will demand that they have the same raiding shoulders because of something trivial like the aesthetics of the cool spikes or color.
If the complainer is a 20 man raider, they will insist that they should be handed the 40 man gear because it is not fair that they do not have the time or guild members to do the 40.
The demands will go on and on from the silver spoon-fed soccer mom offspring that have been told their entire life that they are all winners (no losers) regardless of their participation or performance and these people will never be happy with what they have as they are too busy looking at what others have earned and demanding that.
There is a drawback to those that have been handed everything in life or grew up under parents that demanded score not be kept in their soccer game because everyone is a winner just for showing up and we see it daily with the entitlement demand from these offspring that we all have the same 'thing' regardless of effort in meeting the same requirement set forth for that ‘thing’.
There is one common component to these entitlement players, their demands revolve around them:- I do not like 'x', I do not have time to do 'x', I cannot do 'x' SO.... GIVE me 'x' or no one should have 'x'. (another is that they often overuse the words 'not fair')
I have never met anyone like that but I guess those players exist too. Anyone who reasons like that must be 12-13 years old or so. It's not even related to this thread.
These types of players can be quite common on RP servers.
But I agree with Herpes that it's almost unrelated, and he quotes a post more then a whole page back....which is just plain strange, specially with the text he writes....
You couldn't resist deliberately misspelling my name as Herpes.
it's like stealing gold from an Exile....too easy, but it must be done by someone!
It was bound to happen. My Messiah complex compels me to forgive you.
As anyone viewing this can see- this is a lengthy post so anyone that has an issue with reading a lengthy post or that likes to complain about lengthy posts please do us both a favor and stop reading here.
Are you referring to my post? If so, I quoted something a page back as this is the FIRST I had seen this thread and it is relevant to my point.
The point of my post is that regardless of whether or not there are various leveling/progression options and specific gear associated with those leveling paths, there will be people that will not be happy with what they have as they will always be preoccupied with what others have and I think it is entirely possible that this point may relate to this thread.
Even though the OP announced a couple of times that they really enjoyed the game, had made up their mind to purchase and had plans in place for a guild, they came to this forum to post a thread stating that due to an article they read, they will now not purchase the game. The focus of the article for them appears to be the point stated in their initial post- “putting the very best gear in 40 peep raids”
Throughout this thread the OP gives the impression that they will not be satisfied unless they can determine that the raiding gear is not the ‘best gear’ in game and they want assurance from Carbine that this is not the case before buying.
When several people attempted to explain to the OP that ‘best’ is a subjective term as there will be various routes to pursue other than raiding (including the quote I used in my post), this was pretty much ignored and did not resolve the OP’s frustration. In fact, the last post had the OP continuing to demand to hear about ‘end game’ with a wait and see attitude on a game they had already declared that they enjoyed and had decided to buy. The topic of whether or not the raiding gear is needed for their chosen progression route does not appear to be part of the equation for the OP.
If the concern from the OP was whether they could get great gear that allowed them to pursue aggressive leveling or progression without raiding, the statement I quoted from Kat (and other posts in this thread) helped explain this and was ignored and thus is a valid point to my speculative post. Not only was the feedback ignored, it was argued against. The OP’s posts in this thread leave me with little doubt that if the 40 man hardcore end game raiding gear has higher main stats for this poster’s class (or any other indication to them that the gear is better), there will be continued complaints and threats to not purchase the game.
It has been stated that rare blue items will drop in dungeons and adventures, epics will be dropping in 20 man raids, legendary gear will drop in the 40 mans and the last boss in the 40 man can drop an artifact weapon with no mention (may happen though) of similar items dropping elsewhere. In fact, Wildstar’s own website indicates that the veteran adventures will drop gear to "help prepare for raiding". Although it makes sense for a developer to allow for one progression route to prepare a player for the next, this does not mean that every player will need to follow the viable path of progression from one route to the next. Now many of us will reason out that if our chosen path is dungeons and adventures that the rare blue items will allow us to progress on this path just fine while a raider in 20 mans will be challenged with more difficult bosses as they progress and 40 man will face tougher challenges than 20 so gear stats for raiders will and should be different than someone sticking to dungeons and adventures- even if this means that some of the base stats might be a bit higher than blue gear. Unfortunately, there is a segment of the gaming community (such as those I referenced in my post) that refuse to see past the cool ‘shiny’ that someone else has even if it is not necessary for their progression route.
I am fairly confident that the 20 and 40 man raiding gear will not only include stats necessary for raiding progression (strikethrough ect), some of the main stats we all use may be higher on some of this gear as well. The point of this is that these higher stats are necessary for the challenging bosses in the 40 man raids but may not be necessary for someone running dungeons and adventure. If this is the case, I think we need to simply put on our big gamer panties and stop looking at what other players are doing and focus on our own progression and stop trying to compare adventure gear with raiding gear as the comparison of someone running adventures to someone doing veteran 40 man raids is comparing apples to oranges.
So with this in mind, what exactly is the OP expecting Carbine to reassure them of? That there is not a natural path from one progression route to the next for those that want to follow it? (not going to happen as they state this exists on their website) That raiding gear will not have any higher base stats than adventure gear? That there will be plenty of fun for those sticking to dungeons and adventures and the gear found in adventures and dungeons will allow them to effectively continue doing dungeons and adventures? No, the OP appears to want reassurance that those that decide to follow a progression path from dungeons and adventures to raiding will not have ‘better gear’.
Regarding this particular thread…. If I created a thread under the misunderstanding that raid gear was best in game and I would need this to continue enjoying the game when I only wanted to run pvp, dungeons, or adventures and was informed that I could pursue my choice of progression and get gear applicable to this course that would allow me to continue enjoying the progression route of my choice, I would not continue to argue or threaten to leave the game. I would post a big sigh of relief declaring that I could now move forward with my decision to purchase a game I was enjoying.
This did not happen as the OP still appears focused on what gear the raiders might be getting. Now infuse into this the repeated derogatory comments (toxic, spewing superiority, enslaved sad pathetic creatures…) toward those that raid and fuel is added to my speculative fire as the focus again appears to be potential ‘better gear’ that he/she will not have and a complete disdain for those that have it or attempt to get it.
The OP has not expressed question or concern whether the gear they are able to get via their chosen path of progression will be practical for their route- just continuous concern that someone taking the raiding path might end up with ‘better’. There were no questions or concerns for how dungeons or adventures were set up to allow ongoing enjoyment for those that do not want to raid (which they are with the constantly changing adventure each time it is run and more difficult veteran levels)- just concern that those taking the raiding route might end up with ‘better gear’.
Why was the OP’s primary focus on gear rather than progression? Why is the OP continuing to demand reassurance from Carbine and what are they actually asking for reassurance on that has not already been answered on the Wildstar website or in this thread?
If my concern was truly whether I would have enough to do in game without raiding, I would not be focusing on the raiding gear and would be asking about the dungeons, adventures, pvp and whether the gear I could obtain in these progression routes would allow me to continue enjoying the game.
Nope, not certain my original post is unrelated to this thread at all.
To the OP-
Wildstar offers more progression options than any other MMO I have played. The crafting, pvp, challenges, dungeons and ever changing adventures (including veteran mode) should keep 'non-raiders' active and happy longer than any MMO on the market. Gear is tailored toward each progression path and rest assured, whatever progression path you choose, the gear you obtain along the way will enable you to continue enjoying the game so no need to concern yourself with what a toxic, superiority spewing, enslaved pathetic raider might be getting for gear in his/her 20 or 40 man raid group.
I read your post gabers1 and what caught my attention was that you seem to consider the lower tiers of PvE as a separate progression path. It's debatable whether or not a strictly tiered PvE-system can be considered as different progression paths or is in fact just one path divided into casual and hardcore playing styles. This effectively excludes certain types of players, namely the "hardcore grinders". They have no progression path.
This is just me but if I was an MMO-designer I would include dungeon crawler grind and puzzle based elements aimed at solo players and players playing in teams even smaller than 5 men. It could be called treasure hunter mode and players specializing in it received gear aimed at killing certain types of mobs unique to treasure hunter environments while making them jump slightly longer, resist environmental damage, reduce falling damage etc, therefore allowing for progression over longer periods of time. Ofc treasure hunter dungeons would also include some unique materials, recipes and other things otherwise unattainable, in this way creating diversity and a symbiosis between raiders and soloers. These dungeons would be hard and time consuming, taking months of daily grind and require absolute control of your character (such as mastering kiting, CC, AoE etc to perfection) to progress through. There would be time trial challenges, boss-like creatures involving puzzles to be solved etc...
This would be a truly separate progression path and not a lower tier PvE intended for early raid gear and casuals. It would attract certain types of patient grind oriented players who were given the possibility to really max out their crafting and other skills beyond what was otherwise possible. The raiders would stand in line in the cities to buy certain raid beneficial items from these players, thus creating a real eco system while improving relations between different types of players.
Another example could be that the most progressed treasure hunter-solo player was actually needed in order to craft the legendary orange weapon for the guildmaster of the supreme raiding guild with the materials the raiders gathered during their raids, since the crafting recipe could only be found at the end of the hardcore solo progression (ofc using a system where the finished item could never be stolen by the crafter).
I think progression is one of those terms that has various meanings Hermes. A progression path to me is one that allows a player to progress from one point to another including leveling. Carbine appears to be separating progression paths and does seem to semi-divide the solo and small group (dungeons and adventures) progression from the raiding progression so I simply expanded on this line of thinking. While we could try to generically lump all together as group pve progression, I think it is very practical (due to the differences in dungeons/adventures and large group raiding) to continue to view them as viable stand-alone progression paths that can compliment each other if a player so chooses.
Although not puzzle or treasure hunt based, Carbine does offer some smaller (under 5) events in game. My first shiphand I did solo at level and this provided a nice little challenge. My second shiphand I could not do alone but I think I was a level below the shiphand. There were quests that provided very nice drops that stated 2-3 or 3+ players and the challenge was on par with the suggested number.
I am not suggesting that your idea is not valid or would not add an increased enjoyment to those that like to solo or do small group events, I just think that Wildstar does a nice job of already offering some of this in game.
It probably does, to a certain degree. Chances are it's still too casual and no viable long term end-game option.
The real question I think is "should we be making purchasing decisions based on what we read on this forum?"
I have heard several posts on how things "should" work using the various world views of the posters, but nothing addressing the question that was asked about how they "will" or "do" work.