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Raids looting system - Need vs Greed?! REALLY?! (Seperate loot on smaller mobs?)

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Exquise, May 25, 2013.

  1. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I say we return to EQ's loot rules where whoever gets to the corpse first gets it all for himself. That way, I shall become the most notorious loot ninja in all of Wildstar! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!!!!
    Exquise likes this.
  2. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Awesome don't get redacted :p

    To be a little more constructive, in Gw2 you would loot YOUR own items, in 95% of the time, they would suck for you, here is one other of the many enormous flaws of this MMO the terrible itemization system, w/e you had these items and here is the problem, you wouldnt exchange them with your peers, you would simply salvage them for ressources. This system tookone of the last piece of communication and sharing people had in dungeons. So yes i prefer people actually communicating, even if it is fighting over a good item, over 5 different people getting their own sucky items separately.
  3. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, GW2 has by far the best community of any of the dozens of MMOs I've played over the years. Over nine months and hundreds of hours I can count on one hand the negative player experiences I've had, and most of those were more stupidity than malice.

    I do think there are flaws in GW2's system, mostly in the way Magic Find works, and also in how very rare "Exotic" loot is, meaning that unless you have very high MF you're not likely to get any very often, which means that most of what you do get is vendor trash. If I get an exotic, I don't want to fight a party member over it, and if they get an exotic and post it in chat, I have no impulse to try and take it from them. I had one of those very few negative experiences last week, a dungeon run that took about twice as long as I've ever taken on it because it was a particularly poor group that seemed to have at least a couple people that didn't know what they were doing and didn't want to admit it, but at the end of the run I got a low-end exotic warhorn, and that was at least a solid consolation for it. If I'd had to roll for it with those idiots I'd have raged.

    Saved by the loot mechanism.
  4. Mentiras

    Mentiras New Cupcake

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    Inimicus in that case maybe the "need" function should also check class? you could not need everything in that respect ;)
  5. Exquise

    Exquise New Cupcake

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    There are flaws, and there are a lot of them. But it is possible to look past them for the overall gaming experience.
    When in Guilds, I'm usually that one guy who gets all the banter hate, and gives it back. On skype, I'm the guy with the funny accent that people really aren't used to. Being Aussie does have it's perks haha! I don't mind that, it add's to the experience.

    Overall, I like the looting system of GW2 as I already stated. And you're right, most negative experiences are usually from someone's stupidity, and then how stubborn they are. Getting rewarded at the end of that is good too. I don't have auto-loot on, I like feeling as if I have more control over what I'm doing.


    I don't remember who, but someone did say something interesting. Scrap that idea, leave the need system in, but on top of that have a Voting system, so for the people who need items the party can then vote on who gets it rather than it just being ninja'd by ungrateful players.

    Interesting idea, and doesn't add a lot more effort on the part of the developers, but it's more a question of how many people would really enjoy that feature?
  6. Inimicus

    Inimicus Cupcake

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    I am the hidden class "ALLCLASS" and your gearz are mine!!!!
  7. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't consider it flawed and I don't see how anything can be ninja'd anymore.
    Everyone seems to want some system that will bring the same mechanics Guilds use for Raids to PUG grps but I just don't see how tht will ever work.
    DKP systems all need a Master Looter and when you are in a Guild that is an easy thing to decide on, but in PUG grps, who is the "leader" or "master" isn't as clear.

    If you remove the NvG and remove the BoP like in RO1 then at the end of a PUG Raid everyone that participated in the Raid can roll on the gear that is dropped.
    It shouldn't matter what class you are, its a PUG grp, nobody should be able to claim loot over other ppl in a PUG Raid even if you think you NEED it.
    Everyone in the Raid should get a chance to roll on the loot, then afterwards they can decide to either be nice and sell/trade/give it to someone who needs it, or they can keep it for themselves, or try and sell it for big money. That is fair.
    You cant ninja things or manipulate ppl into letting you roll, everyone rolls so you have a 1 in 40 shot at getting a piece of Raid loot.

    If you are in an established Guild and playing with Guildmates you would always be free to come up with w/e kind of loot system everyone thinks is appropriate. DKP, Roll only if you can Equip, etc.

    Those decisions however should just be removed from PUG grps all together, if you form a random grp with a bunch of random ppl and still manage to defeat a Dungeon Boss or Raid Boss then everyone in that random grp should have a chance at the spoils.
    If you want to try and collect your Raid Gear set or what have you then that is what Guilds are for.
  8. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is definitely a need to have Need/Greed distinction between classes in PUG groups. You're imagining some utopian society where not only everyone is informed on what's appropriate for their class / what can be equipped, but you're also assuming there's nobody who would like to deny lower-performing players loot. Even if said low-performing players are new, simply undergeared, etc. Roll system limitations prevent improper/anti-social behavior in random groups.

    For an Agility item rolled on between Rogue and Druid in WoW, yeah, you can't really argue who "needs" it more. They can both use it and they both benefit from the stat. Even if it's an ilvl downgrade, it might have a special proc or set bonus they're after.

    What a restricted system prevents is a new Warrior rolling on a caster trinket he can't even benefit from, or a Rogue rolling on a Wand he can't even equip. It ensures if loot does drop in a random group, people who can use it get a fair chance to win it against people who can actually use the item to increase their player power.

    For spoils that everyone can use and benefit from (materials, consumables, cosmetic items), sure, don't restrict anything. But for items that are meant for certain roles/classes, restrict the rolls. Even during MoP's launch there was a Scholomance trinket that didn't have proper loot roll rules and people just clicked Need (the most powerful option available to them) even though the trinket wasn't meant for their class. Blizzard realized and fixed the bug, but it shows people will just roll the highest they can to win items in PUGs, even if they can't use the item in question.

    Where the genre is today, the mentality of "You gotta be with your guild / a guild-formed group to get a fair shake at loot." is a bit antiquated and would hurt WS if it took that direction. It might help your guild, but it'd utterly kill random groups since your chance of actually netting drops/upgrades dips significantly as you now have 4x the chance to lose a roll on every item.

    So I still posit loot roll restrictions are very needed in a PUG environment where you didn't choose your party.

    Begin the 3-person guild queues to guarantee any useful drop is immediately funneled to their party. Unless same-guild votes don't count, in which case you're relying on 2 people to both vote for you if something dropped. You'd be disincentivized from running with anything but a full PUG or full guild group to have better chances at loot.

    Any kind of voting system, excepting AFK reports since a player can usually whack a player to remove the AFK warning debuff, can be exploited at the detriment of PUG players.
    BonusStage likes this.
  9. Cottonspore

    Cottonspore Cupcake-About-Town

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    Now I have! That's very interesting. On one hand, I guess I can see the appeal of the competition for some people - that's a division by personality type. Actually, this whole debate may be one based around personality types. I don't belong to that group of people who enjoy being in direct competition with others, despite (or maybe because) competition being inherent and inescapable in multiple areas of my offline life. So, obviously I personally enjoy when I can play games with systems that encourage and reward cooperation. Regardless of whether or not one enjoys competition or cooperation, even if they aren't deliberately tagging things you're clearly aiming for, the fact of the matter is that your gameplay is actually impeded by having other players near by. That is the thrill of competition right? Impede and obstruct other people in order to elevate yourself. However, that destroys most of my reasons to play an MMO, as my enjoyment of the genre stems from unexpected and unanticipated cooperation with strangers. So, I do prefer open world mobs being shared.

    99% of this concerns regular mobs, by the way. I'm not really a rare mob hunter myself. I appreciate being able to tag world bosses with other people, but it's not essential and it rarely affects me. I just hate spending most of my time in a game running away from/avoiding other people because there aren't enough sheep in the area for the both of us to farm. I'd much rather run towards them, knowing that my presence in the area helps them do what they're doing, rather than makes me a nuisance.
  10. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree that with bound items there has to be some sort of system in place.

    My whole comment was in the context that gear from Raids and Dungeons not be BoP(Bind on Pickup.)

    If Raid/Dungeon items were not BoP then it would be perfectly fair for ALL members of the Raid/Party to roll on loot. Then you never have loot stolen from you, you just lost the roll.
    You aren't depriving anyone or stealing from new players, you don't have to worry about taking things from other classes that you can't use yourself.

    If the items were BoE or something similar(Bind on exiting dungeon) then you would always look at the loot 1 of 2 ways, its either Gear or its Gold.

    To me it just seems like there wouldn't be as much drama or trouble if the case was everytime loot drops you roll for it, if you win great you can keep it or sell it.

    N/G system is only needed if you have BoP/BoA type items (also non-individual loot which WS does seem to have)

    Otherwise the loot is always just Gear or Gold, if someone needs something you won they can buy it from you or trade, if you are a true nice person you could give it to them for free or at a discount.
    Imo its a much better way to establish who the teamplayers are.

    This would also make any loot distribution system Guilds came up with much easier to manage because you wouldn't have to stop, pause and figure things inside the dungeon, you could have your Master Looter just take everything and it could be passed out later at your Guild Housing while everyone shares a victory pint.[/quote]
  11. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Items will be BoP by different reasons. Most new games supports a trade option between raid members for accidently looted BoP items for a few hours.
  12. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Raid and dungeon items are BoP specifically for the reason you just outlined? The whole point of doing an instance is to get gear to do better content, if everyone just rolls on everything for the AH you are only hurting you raid (In my opinion this person is a worse ninja then some random in a PUG).
    This means that guild would always just use master looter to stop situations like if a BiS stave drops and a DK wins it for the AH rather then your healer, also it would guarantee that in PUGs you would get ninja's 100% of the the time because even if it's an up for your tank you can make 50g on it in the AH.
    That situation also leads to people being able to have raid ready alts for alt runs who don't ever step into an instance with them which just results in disaster. It also screws with the economy because you get situations like the week the instance is released drops that cost like 1000 gold then the next week it drops to 5 gold.
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  13. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    It doesn't mean any of that.

    If you are with your Guild than obviously you will use whatever DKP or NEED or GREED system you want.
    If you are in a PUG grp than its fair that everyone would play like a mercenary would play and want an equal shot at all loot.

    There have been games without BoP.

    I'm also not trying to start an argument over which system is better or worse, I was just pointing out an option I hadn't seen discussed, it has pros and cons just like every other system mentioned.
    There is also the point that with a game that hasn't come out yet a lot of the pros and cons from past systems can be improved and altered to be better.

    From what I have seen/read so far WS seems to have a loot system much more like GW2 than WoW.
    So there is no telling what kind of dungeon loot system there will be.
    I just hope that its not Dungeon Tokens.
  14. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    WSO dosent need gear tokems due to how classes work.

    on WoW too many classes share benefits from the same stats.
    i dont thinik WildStar will have the same issue, it seems to be more stream lined.

    and i dont think every one gets a loot per boss/mob on Wildstar, iam pretty sure the loot drops for the entire group, so iam not sure what do you mean by it being similar to gw2
  15. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I mean that like in GW2 if 2 ppl not in a grp attack and kill a mob they both get loot and credit.
    The last I heard WS has a similar system so there isn't mob tagging.
    Of course I haven't played the game and I can't find something that specifically states what the loot system is.
  16. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    But you can "PUG" as a guild and farm items to sell or trade to alts... You can farm items for your main raid with x alt raids per week...

    And there are games with BoP. The difference is, how are items involved in your character progress. Games with random stat items and no real eldar game group content like diablo don't care about tradeable items, because they drops by chance, not by clearing specific content.

    GW2 loot system was tried in SWTOR pug raids and was one of the first, they have patched out of the game. I am sure, Carbine knows this.
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  17. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything I was just pointing out a system that I had encountered and enjoyed.

    Unless you are a WS dev or can tell me where to go on their official site to find the section explaining the loot mechanics of the game I don't see any reason to try and point out everything you don't like about a loot system I didn't create and counter it with your own speculation.

    There seems to be many different options and even more opinions about those options.
    I am not trying to fight for one way or the other I was just pointing out something that didn't involve the N/G or Individual Loot system which had already been discussed.

    I am just excited for the game and really can deal with any loot mechanics they decide to use.
    I already love the loot piñata!
  18. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Good I hope the game has this, mob tagging is an antiquated system and only leads to people crying about fairness.
    But this thread isn't about questing content it's about looting in instances where mob tagging is a nonissue.

    I'm sorry if I came across as terse that's not my intention I just normally write to the point because I'm at work when I'm posting normally.
    However if you wish to air your opninion on a public forums you have to be ready to accept both that people will disagree with you on occasion and you will be called to defend what you say (which is something we all forget from time to time when we feel w're being attacked for no good reason).

    Im excited about the game too and the last thing I want to see happen is people crying about loot drama because Carbine made a bad call on the loot system in PUG situations.
  19. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think anyone tries to convience you too. All we are doing is, pointing out, that every loot system was already used in the past and some like the n/g have survived, because they work better then others.

    Loot system is not only about the way to share loot, its about the way how much loot should spoiled out per boss. In 40 men raids a boss will NEVER drop 40 single items for everyone. There is no fair way to reward every player. And if you deny a need before greed option every player who really needs an item get frustrated, if another player with absolutly no need will get the item. He will feel ninjalooted too, especielly if he'll find this item in the AH later.

    BoP items are already confirmed by a dev in this forum and that they are needed to get crafting materials, too. Look on the first pages of this board for a yellow thread opener. It's a thread about itemization. Knowing there are items with BoP in endgame raids and you have to destroy them for crafting. This reduces the options for sharing loot rules.
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  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I'm wondering something about the mob tagging thing ( in open world not instances ). For the people who dont like it, and prefer the shared mob thing, can a stranger just follow you around and let you do all the work and just hit an Aoe spell once so they also get loot from the mob? and if thats true, you are ok with that?
    Same with elites or bosses, they just stand next to you and wait until its down to 10% health and then hit it once?

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