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Ranged Tanking, is it Possible?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by BlindSear, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ever fight Garalon in Mists of Pandaria on WoW? That's pretty much the same as a "ranged tank" fight. Although it doesn't technically have to use a tank at all, I ended up kiting as a healer.

    The reason dedicated tanks aren't ranged is so that bosses can move more easily. If they're ranged and the boss is ranged, it will have no reason to move without an outrageously large room.
  2. WildStone

    WildStone Cupcake

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    It's very possible that the highly speculated 'engineer class' will have some sort of mechanical pet or a wide array of gadgets at his disposal that would serve as a sort of 'Tanking Pet', while it 'kites' and fires his 2H ranged blaster from a distance. This is just my educated guess ;)
  3. Absolute

    Absolute Cupcake

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    Didnt they say that there will be no tanks in this game?
  4. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    They said they'll keep the trinity.
  5. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    What game have you been following? ;)
  6. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    There are definitely tanks in the game, but they will have all classes able to be hybrids of either Tank/DPS or Healer/DPS. The abilities can be swapped around so tanks aren't locked into being tanks.
  7. AIMonster

    AIMonster New Cupcake

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    I honestly see the melee tank having an advantage over the ranged tank in most fights. Unless the encounter absolutely calls for a boss to be kited, having the melee tank keep the MOB in one spot means you should be able to output more damage on it. When I could tank as a Ranger in GW2 (which was almost always) for my group it went a lot faster than when we were forced to kite around.

    On a side note I really hope we don't have a true pet class. They are impossible to balance in an action MMO as they either can't attack a target consistently (pathfinding and AI can't keep up with an actual player) or hit too consistently that they are a far too powerful and difficult to deal with DPS on the target. Balance around the pet is why the Ranger is considered underpowered in all aspects except SPvP in GW2 right now. I always felt like having an uncontrollable minion didn't add anything to the Ranger class, and it would have been a lot more fun (and balanced) if it didn't exist at all.
  8. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    pillars, walls, buff zones, cooldowns on ranged attacks, melee based abilities (stuns, other cc) Spawn adds from melee (dragons hatching their eggs) ... there are many reasons a boss capable of sustaining damage from ranged might want to move around. All of BWL was plenty big enough for ranged type fights.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Kiting is always a DPS loss for parties, unless boss mechanics dictate otherwise (like a buff when moving or something else weird.) This is why I was wondering if there's a way to overcome the need for kiting with tanking mechanics. I think the best way around this would be having the boss have a knockback and snare mechanic. While it would still be kiting it would be slow and melee could move easily with it, and would have negligible effects to ranged DPS.

    I certainly hope there are no true pet classes, I've always hated having a pet. Check my first post, there's an idea there that gets around a true pet, while using the basic mechanics of the pet. Which the pet is effectively a remote point to launch abilities from as well as a separate health pool.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Ok, so there's the line of sight thing, but otherwise you don't have control of where the boss is, when it moves, and you lose precision on movement. The point of the tank is to soak damage and create a good position for the party. If the tank is positioned poorly the entire raid suffers.

    On the other hand I suppose if you assume a huge hit box for the boss, then melee range becomes 30 yards, and acts the same as a boss with a ranged attack that is smaller.
  11. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    A boss that can sustain damage from range wouldn't have to move as fast or faster than a player, so melee dps would be at less of a disadvantage. All of the movement I described can be predicted for the most part, so the melee would be ready for it, and be able to keep good uptime. pillars and walls also potentially create los issues for ranged. All of this can be balanced. It is definitely more difficult, but at least in theory, it is possible. In practice, with latency especially, who knows. I don't think anyone around here without a yellow name would be able to decisively say one way or another that it is impossible.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Oh, I was giving reasons we haven't seen a true ranged tank before. It also seems silly to develop ranged mechanics for EVERY boss in the game simply because you want to have a tank that wants to sit back in the ranged camp. And by silly I mean an unnecessary amount of work for somewhere around a third of the raiding community if not less. Also, it would be a balancing nightmare to try to make the ranged version of the same boss close to equal difficulty as the melee.
  13. Doomgrin

    Doomgrin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Think mob movement is going to be more about what variety of telegraphs they have unless Warriors get a block or bosses are susceptible to interrupts.
  14. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    The thing with a true ranged tank, would be that they would need to be able to somehow keep the boss at range. They would need to be able to use physics(knockbacks, pulls, etc). The bosses could not be effected by regular dps physics moves so the rangede tank would need a "buff" or special passive abilitiy allowing him to do this, the problem comes with then why would raids just not take a ranged tank to every fight, makes it simpler dramatically. Boss throwing down circles of hurt around the ranged tank, the melee are all good, and the rest of the rangers are just off over yonder pelting the boss.

    I would love to see a ranged tank but the closest I think we are going to get to one are tanks like the Powtech/Com in TOR. Just a normal tank with a gun.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Mob movement will be aimed at something, and only partially constrained by telegraphs.

    Also, bosses are susceptible to interrupts after a certain amount of cc attempts.

    "Our first solution to this is a system we call “Interrupt Armor”. In this system, players and creatures can receive buffs that add Interrupt Armor counters to their character. These Interrupt Armor counters act as Crowd Control absorbers. Each Crowd Control spell will have a power associated with it, if this power is less than the current amount of counters on a player or creature, the value of the Interrupt Armor is dropped by that value and the Crowd Control is not applied. If the Crowd Control power reduces the Interrupt Counters to 0, the Crowd Control effect will be applied. This system has the added bonus of opening up new possibilities for raid and dungeon boss design, as we can use Interrupt Armor on these bosses in different ways to encourage new strategies from players."
    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/uplink_analysis_pvp.php
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Unfortunately I think you're correct, I believe it will also just be a melee tank with a gun. I was just trying to start some conversations on how it could be implemented otherwise.

    Check out my idea on the hologram from the first post, it's basically a modified pet class to also implement the telegraph system.
  17. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well as a warlock I in WoW I tanked the Astromancer(?) in the Kael'thas fight, Leotheras the Blind, The caster twin of Twin Emperors, Illidan (demon phases), the frost dragon trash in Hyjal, Eredar Twins caster twin, and some other bits and bobs - all of that was ranged tanking (just need something to hold threat and some way of surviving the damage - resists in most cases or just health/talents in others).
    Mages using spellsteal have been used to tank at least a couple of fights when I was playing (Gruul's Lair + Illidari council).
    Heal spamming has also been used in some fights to hold agro and tank mobs.
    I remember misdirection bouncing a boss between hunters when we had no priest alts for mind control in WotLK Naxx (and done similar kiting on my druid with bear taunt + cat form sprint - OS10 man 3 adds speed kill) but that's not really true tanking as the plan is not to get hit.

    Trooper/BH in SWTOR were ranged tanks (albeit with a mix of melee and ranged abilities) and I could hold agro on anything but a main dps target with my Assassin tank outside of melee (although range was only 10m or so).

    For purely ranged tanking you just need a ranged mob, the ability to hold agro and some means of surviving the damage dealt. With melee mobs they will close the distance so you might not define it as ranged tanking despite ranged abilities being used at close range.
  18. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Eh, I read the hologram. It felt too much like a pet to me and would require a bit too much mirco managing while you are supposed to be tanking you know.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It is a pet, but it moves based on your movement, and the health pool is linked to yours, and could be linked to your buffs and heals as well.
  20. Doomgrin

    Doomgrin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I guess I did not give enough information. example: Boss gives off area telegraph, tank moves to safe area. Mob follows tank as he still has aggro. So the point being, tanks are going to have to take it on the chin on some telegraphs in order to move the boss to where they want.

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