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Ranged Tanking, is it Possible?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by BlindSear, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Depends on where the telegraph is, as if it's a cone, the tank can sidestep during the attack, then return the boss to the original position after the attack to keep melee dps in place. There are also telegraph attacks which physically move the boss. So, as stated before the boss's movement is only partially constrained by telegraphs.

    So for this example a good tank would move out of the way of the cone attack and then turn the boss back to the original position, and interrupt the attack which the boss physically moves in order to keep the melee dps in place. A bad tank on the other hand would move out of the cone attack and eventually keep rotating the boss in the same direction so melee dps has to move, and simply avoid attacks which the boss physically moves for.
  2. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I imagine a ranged tank would have to be good at circle strafe kiting. If you can do that well you won't lose in precision or DPS. You can keep the MoBs in a small centered area.

    I think we need to realize that typical melee tanking, that we are all used to, probably won't work in WS. Movement will be key on all the tanks so DPS and Healing will have to adapt. I don't forsee any body doing much standing still at range and being effective. Not with how this combat seems to be designed.
    Afrotech likes this.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Hmm... That's true it could be that a true ranged tank isn't necessary, because all tanks will be moving and kiting a lot. The ranged tank will simply have the boss on a bungee cord, and able to be have a continuous damage output as well.
    Mudfin likes this.
  4. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    There's a reason the Vanguard and Powertech tanks were changed to be melee tanks in Star Wars: The Old Republic, and why Monk healers in World of Warcraft are terrible when they strictly use their melee playstyle. These two roles just don't work when the "range" that they play in is reversed.
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    With tab targeting I would agree, though with an action based combat the ranged tank may work, no idea on a melee healer though.
  6. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Fist weavers are actually amazing for 5 man challenges .
  7. A Game of Scones

    A Game of Scones New Cupcake

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    Remember that there will be 20 and 40 man raids, not 10 and 25. WS could require and realistically expect you to have ultra-specialized roles like ranged tank and AoE melee healer in every boss fight because of the sheer number of people that would be in each raid group.

    May be more difficult for some five man groups, but not every role needs to have presence in every scenario.
  8. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I dont see why kiting needs to be involved, just allowing a tank to have 30m abilities would be enough to add some flavor. You would tank melee mobs like normal and on heavy movement/ranged mobs you would be at a significant advantage over a melee tank. It also help on initial aggro being able to pull the boss/adds without needing to leap in.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Kiting will slow down dps and make it harder on the healers. As mentioned by someone earlier, things die faster when the mobs are held in one place instead of running all over. I'm sure that Stalkers and Warriors will have some ranged abilities and cc's to be able to kite, and if not any ranged DPS can do it. Also, it's sorta lame to have a tank that has this big gun and then just shoots from melee range the majority of the time anyway. It kinda is unrealistic, but with the telegraph system it is possible that tanking is more about movement anyway, so kiting or movement similar to kiting is natural anyway.

    Actually you want the tank to charge in, it usually works out better in most cases. This is because the tank will be able to have initial aggro on all creatures within range until others start whacking on it. For instance, the tank pew pew's the first mob in a pack of 5 and then the melee dps charges in (as they like to do) and all of the sudden the tank has to taunt off of everything, instead of being the first one there.

    Though with 40 man raiding as A game of scones mentioned, there are plenty of people to fill plenty of roles, so a full ranged tank is actually more of a possibility in that case.
  10. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    What I'm hoping for with ranged tanks is the something similar to what lock/mage tanks was in vanilla/tbc, it's was a few fights/phases that you couldn't stand in melee but still needed to keep agro.
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So far the general consensus seems to be that a lot of fights will be able to have just that, a tank that is needed for kiting. The whole dps loss due to kiting will not be felt, as the action based combat is conducive to movement. I think it'll be interesting to see just how they implement a ranged tank, but judging by the combat system I think you'll be pleased with it. Also, the fact that there's 40/20-man raiding everyone will be able to fill all niche rolls that sometimes cannot be filled in 25/10-man raiding.
  12. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not talking about kiting, I'm talking about an actual ranged boss/add.
    Take (a modified) Annihilation Droid XRR-3 from TOR as example: You have to fight the XRR-3 and his two turrets at the same time, you'd then need two ranged tanks to tank the turrets from the group while the others handle XRR-3.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yah, same for that, it's possible there's going to be dedicated builds for this type of thing.
  14. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's interesting. Yet I think the ranged class may be a controller type?
    If it's ranged tank then its a good thing that most attacks the other classes have hit multiple mobs which helps a lot if the ranged tank is doing some kiting. and for the ranged DPS classes they may be rooted when casting some spells but they can rotate and Aim their attacks like a laser dot on the ground keeping it aimed at the mobs.
    Now my curiosity about ranged tanks is sparked.
  15. Screenager

    Screenager Cupcake-About-Town

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    Its not entirely unrealistic. From a purely hypothetical standpoint ive always felt the concept of ranged tanks should tend away from heavy armour with a nig gun and centre more around the concept of moving stuff to you.... As apposed to you running right up to things. Tanks draw aggro and act as a meat shrild. Traditionally they do this by standing in front ( going to ) the danger. Stepping into high dps with a big gun can be dangerous as it obv has the potential to make ranged dps feel a tad put out. However focusing on getting quick distance a bit of cc and moving stuff towards ( away from your team mates ) you would work far more effectively ftom my pov. I felt swtor vanguards dabbled then veered too far away from this idea only really giving players the ability to pull every once in a while. This design decision in the end meant every tank had to end up moving forward which in essence meant in pvp at least you were ranged but less than optimal at being that ranged tank.
  16. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    See the problem here is that the scenario you just made, was tailor made for the class. It would need to be at least a 2 boss fight, kind of like Romeo + Juliet in Kara, or Twin Emps. Where one is a melee boss and the other ranged boss. The problem there is that that is one fight where a ranged tank would be useful. As was mentioned before, the idea behind a ranged tank is to tank from a consistent range as effectively as a "meat shield" tank can do from melee. It is just not possible. There would need to be so many tank adjustments just for the ranged tank, such as somehow being able to keep boss/mob at a range without forcing kiting, which will kill your melee dps hard.

    Also the problem arises, that Carbine can't just have 1 or 2 bosses per raid that require the use a ranged tank mainly because that kills one of the slots in raid. Granted it is a 40 man raid and one person isn't terribly going to kill your Raid dps, at least we believe so, things may have changed for Wildstar. But, then it would cause a raid lead to plan for one ranged tank that wouldn't be any different than a meat shield tank for the majority of the raid. Thus bringing into focus balancing issues, if the ranged tank had as much melee defensive abilities as the meat shield one then why even bring a meat shield? Vice versa, why bring a ranged tank, when you could just have a Spellslinger/Esper kite the boss, dodge the tellies, and throw some heals on themselves and have a dedicated healer?

    To be honest, I want a ranged tank I just don't think it will happen. When ToR came out with the Ptech/Com tanks the idea was cool, looking at the moves list made me excited. In practice though, they were just a meat shield tank with a gun. Finally, who is to say that the 3rd tank spot won't have some form of better kiting and rounding up of mobs, Pallies were phenomenal at AoE threat. They could still MT, albeit a little rougher with more attention paid, than say a traditional meat shield.
  17. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lol i was just quoting replying to his post and answering with a posibility if a ranged tank was implamented... and just because there is a ranged Tank does not mean he has to Kite anyways. I've played games with ranged tanks who did just fine with tons of mobs and boss all up on him. He simply kited the hoards of mobs to 1 spot let them beat on him while he was ranging the Boss when boss was not going melee. This allowed melee players to bash on the boss without having to worry about Adds Cleave attacks while other melee focused the mobs on the Ranged Tank then once dead switched to boss. The ranged tank could have massive shields and can take melee DMG im sure. thats why they are a Tank hehe.
  18. Hambledurger

    Hambledurger New Cupcake

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    It's been said a few times, but this is the direction I would imagine the Wildstar ranged tank would go. PT/VG were both pretty much melee tanks that had a few more ranged options than the usual melee tank.

    Fully ranged tanking itself seems like it would be a little clunky to implement, but then again we haven't seen all that much combat and it might work out.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, the problem with the Kara example is that it's interesting assuming no possibility of a dedicated ranged tank. If there is one that is able to at least be oriented toward ranged tanking, then there could be boss fights where no melee tank is needed. There's also a possibility that bosses may have ranged and melee phases where aggro is needed to be kept and tanks have to swap between melee and ranged. It's even possible that bosses will need only a ranged tank. With 40 man raids and having 3 possible tanks in that isn't a stretch. Especially because they can be swapped to CC dps from tank instead of straight DPS. It's been alluded that CC is going to be an important part of raiding in WS as well.

    Also, with the amount of movement in WS combat already, there won't be a big difference between a kited mob and a mob held "still" to the MDPS. The telegraph system and the whole game gearing players to be trained for high movement is a "game changer."
  20. Hambledurger

    Hambledurger New Cupcake

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    I'm not sure they would design a fight where one type of tank would be completely unable to do the fight. There might be fights where one tank has an easier time due to mechanics, but I don't think they would ever want to entirely exclude one class.

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