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Round 2: A 1% Perspective on the Jeremy Gaffney I-view with Gamebreaker.tv

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Crucifer, May 22, 2013.

  1. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm back going for round 2...now discussing a 1% view on what was discussed on gamebreaker.tv's i-view and hands on game play footage found:

    Here: http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/wildstar-gameplay-hands-on/
    and
    Here: http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/wildstar-interview/

    Okay, so I will generally break this down the same way as before and just give my quick insights on what my personal (opinions / views) are of the information released. Though before I begin I'd like to commend Mr. Gaffney on coming out and stating they are not catering to casuals but training casuals to be 1%'s. This is the kind of mindset I like to hear! Throughout the interview he discussed how the game was intended to be for the skilled to show off their skills and I appreciate that mindset in this day and age.

    I know due to today I should start with the Paths, but I want to start with Telegraphs as it was the first thing discussed in the interview.

    - Telegraphs: still a bit meh.... -

    I am going to break this down by effectiveness of the telegraphs and graphical representation of the telegraphs. First I want to talk about the graphical side of the table.

    Graphically I think they seem out of place, they are big and intrusive and they overlap in horrible shades (through animations and creatures) this just kills immersion and the beauty of the game. Watching the game play footage I should of been enjoying how awesome the boss monster looked, or what cool moves he was doing. Or even picking up the fact a snail joined the fight without being told he did,

    BUT

    I couldn't...why? Because my eyes were too glued on these large big ass flashing rectangles and circles...not the most appealing or pleasing site. It's like the equivalent to visual noise...it's there disrupting the beauty of what its intending to make more intuitive and better. It just still in my opinion doesn't work. It's too appalling to be in something this nice. I hope they come up with another visual style to represent these systems before release. Though this isn't the only issue it brings me to point #2 of the effectiveness of these telegraphs.

    So in the game play video when he's fighting the Ice Monster, he dies at a given point. At first I was confused because he had been what seemed to be effectively dodging the spells. I'd hope since the server should be onsite at the Carbine office that LAG/Latency was not playing a part in this but if you notice at 3:24 in the video he starts taking damage from non-telegraphed auto attacks and even outside of the intended telegraph he takes AoE damage from attacks.

    In a normal world application you could say that this is caused by character hitbox detection models are not actually lining up with the character avatar correctly do to latency issue but in this case it may be poor early build coding. The next big issue is even after he dodges the main telegraph attack he is quickly hit with a non-telegraphed auto attack. (This is what kills him in the video) Not to mention that half the auto attacks visuals were misrepresented. The player was behind the boss when the boss swipes forward and does a 180 jerk motion and hits the player because the AI wants to believe its always facing you.

    So then whats the point of having dodging if you are auto-locked and auto-attacked by mobs? Why even have this system if you are going to give the bosses un-dodgeable auto attacks vs main telegraph spells. If you are going to go telegraph you have to do it like TERA where it is all or nothing you can't give someone a limited number of dodges via a stamina bar but then tell that that if they use that up to dodge main spells they have to eat auto-attacks until they can dodge again.

    Put this system into a dungeon and its no wonder later on in the video they discuss 5 mans being difficult I doubt it's because of the giant red flashing circles on the floor that are intrusive but rather the ravaging auto attack damage you would be taking from multiple mobs at once.

    I'm still far from sold on this system. It's too gimmicky / flashy with not enough real 1% substance to enthrall me that it's being used in this style. Hopefully they skip hiding Raids from us and in the next Dev Speak get to what the real 1%'s want to hear about / see and show us how these mechanics will work in our world. (I mean you are claiming this is a game made out to 1%'s...we want to see the Raiding....)


    - Pay respawning from Death: All I can say is WTF? -

    Pay gold to instantly respawn? This has got to be the WORST idea I've ever heard...this is a casual mechanic to the T and one that can be exploited by the hardcore....World Bosses become a non-factor...Pay 2 Win fighting, World PvP becomes a ridiculous endeavor....kill a guy he instantly respawns, kills you....and on this cycle goes. Die to a mob as you kill it...just pay to get your loot. It's cool.

    Take this out of the game ASAP. It's ridiculous. The you died now run back to your corpse was never ever argued as the best tactic because it is the consequence to your action to fail to survive. Paying to avoid this action on a mere 30 min timer...is insanity. Even once is insanity. Death should have a serious punishment not something you can bribe your way out of.

    All I'll say is I hate this concept wholeheartedly. It's a casual mentality to have pay 2 rez in a game.

    - Housing Dungeons -

    They sound cool, but how easy are they really? Are they just quick spurts with single bosses or are they deep and involved. If its just a 5 min rush to get a free plug on your sockets and no real loot or other reward is worth doing it not many people are going to want to come over to do your dungeon to help you get a free plug. I would like to see a run through of what a Housing Dungeon looks like to understand the purpose and depth of these type of zones so I can see if they are going to be the most awesome concept for a game like this or if they are going to be little minor things most people will just not do later on when all their sockets are plugged. (lol)

    - OKAY OKAY OKAY....Paths -

    Obviously I'll break this down into 4 sections:

    - Soldier -

    This is probably going to be the most used and most played path because it is theoretically never ending. You'll always be killing things in MMOs this just gives you even more rewards for doing so. Seems like a win win and will be viable even into end game for I'm sure multiple reasons. You also get new attacks and abilities which means possibly (Elitist Jerks style) more DPS than other non-soldiers (This would make sense via Lore but would be very unfortunate to just about everyone else who chose not to be a soldier and still loves to top DPS in raids)

    Ironically if it is a numbers advantage most every 1% will be this Path not because it's their play-style but because it offers the most benefits. Outside of one person who will be a Settler...I'll get to that in a minute.

    - Scientist -

    To me this is exactly as said in the i-view the Achievement Wh*re path...however...it's also the path that has the most definitive end. You can complete everything and have 100% achievements. Which means at some given point...your path will become utterly a waste of space outside of picking some fauna to possibly help craft or (maybe like SSC you have to be the one to summon the extra Raid Boss monster for more purps). But have fun being the vending machine (Old WoW Mage Reference +1) where everyone is coming to you for mats and materials. To be honest the one major upside to this is possibly the ability to make more gold than anyone else if the materials gained can be sold or traded. Outside of that it's just a fun past time until you complete everything.

    - Explorer -

    ¯\(°_o)/¯ .... I just don't know...I mean okay I can assassin's creed race around the world map and jump up and find cool ledges, but exactly what is my reward here? Is it just going to be a series of treasure chests at the end of a long hike up a mountain that rewards me with random (most likely) vendor loot and some free gold? Because in these circumstances if your not speed running like the Chinese farmers of old WoW days to these chests around the world then your gold per hour gain will be less worth the time investment of actually exploring.

    I get it too *It'll be randomized!* so the Explorer may never know when he's going to become an explorer or when the challenge to obtain who knows what will arrive. Although in the video shown for paths there wasn't even that it was just a ledge he got to and planted a satellite style beacon down...not exactly sure what is supposed to happen next here.

    I get the concept and trust me I love exploring randomly in MMOs its how you find cool stuff:

    Shameless plug for example:
    [​IMG]

    Only those who truly explored (or use wikipedia) will know what this is a picture of and how much of a pain in the ass in vanilla it was to get to. Yet what was my reward from the hour+ hike back in Vanilla...the shameless ability to link a picture 8 years later and say "aha!" I mean i literally got nothing out of exploring in Vanilla besides being bored enough to do it. There wasn't a chest, no gold, no awesome loot.

    So whats the incentive in Wildstar to be an Explorer?

    Fun Side Note: See Chat - That's when MMOs were truly community driven.....

    - Settler -

    This is by far the coolest and most intriguing Path. (WAIT WAUT?!?!#!@) Did I just say the most casual sounding path of all the paths which requires literally 0 skill is the most intriguing....A witch! A Witch! A lying Witch!.... Okay no but seriously...

    I have played a LOT of MMOs and one of my easiest favorites of all time and many peoples of all time is SWG (Pre the combat thing *Shakes head*) And in SWG you had essentially what this path is...and to be frankly honest I'd say this Path directly derives from SWG's system. Where you could go out to a World Boss and have someone literally lay out essentially a small port town where you could stock up for the fight. No more having to run to town to get stuff then run out to where you need to be...you just get go to where the fun is and someone will bring the convenience store to you.

    While this sounds VERY casual it's in no way casual it's an enabler to be OUTSIDE of city walls and in the world MORE than you are hiding away inside. This means you are more active and around because these Port Cities are out there to allow you to freshen up and keep being adventurous. They were awesome back then and they are awesome now.

    See: http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Camps
    [​IMG]

    To be honest up until today's announcement I was 100% deadset on being a Soldier because of the benefits it will likely have but now this Path brings me back to my SWG days where being the guy who can get the raid organized AT THE RAID...and the guy who can entice MORE PEOPLE to stay out in the world would be my goal to give back to the MMO community. To make the world feel more alive and active by giving people as many hubs as I can build during my travels to make sure NO ONE has to go back to a home city for as long as possible.

    This is an awesome edition to Wildstar and I hope they make it stellar for what it can become!


    Guys this has been another long post I apologize...just figured I'd do another one of these enlightened by recent events. As always feel free to discuss below on your opinions and thoughts and let me know what you think! Hope to see you all soon in-game!

    GAH I need a beta key to this game! *wink wink*
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  2. Azhdaha

    Azhdaha Cupcake-About-Town

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    Re: The Scientist
    I think that's a valid point, with regard to the Scientist being the only Path in theory that has a finite end. What does happen when one reaches 100%, eventually? Obviously one of the draws is that they can unlock puzzles, and the puzzles themselves are randomly generated, so there's that. Perhaps it's the Scientist path that will be the one who tracks down bosses and incorporates them into War Plots, etc. /shrug

    Re: The Settler
    My question is, why is the Settler the only class not to have 8 mission types detailed? Currently, they only have 5. You might be able to make the argument that the Soldier actually only has 5 also (since 4 out of the 8 are just differing types of Holdout missions), but still. Curious if that is intended, an oversight, or something that's still in the works. Was a little surprised to notice that gap today, what with today being the Path's big reveal.
  3. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's understandable, however I am sure since its still closed beta there is plenty of time to add more to the system. The release today is obviously going to muster up a lot more talk (like another post of mine). Which gives Gaffney and Co the ability to hear feedback and add too the system.

    Settler's are the most social of the Paths and to Gaffney probably the one he is most afraid of feedback on from the hardcore community. So leaving a little room to play with alterations if tactically smart. Though if it's intentional is another discussion altogether :p
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  4. Azhdaha

    Azhdaha Cupcake-About-Town

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    I could see that, aye.

    The other question mark for Scientists is the "Diagnostic" description:

    "You're a scientist, and that means you can fix stuff. Whether it's a broken leg or a busted bot, you'll diagnose the problem and take care of it."

    I'll be curious to see what they do with that also.
  5. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    The telegraphs are for big attacks and aoes - I assume they will eventually be for attacks that could insta kill you or put a nasty debuff. Also this was a level seven fight.
    So if you play well you can dodge the big hits but you are going to get hit anyway. Im kinda surprised that you found the telegraphs with the ice giant and snail to be distracting. I guess its the healer outlook in me that I could pay attention to the ui and the environment so this was pretty easy for me to overlook.

    As for the res thing, I don't mind it if it is on a 30 min timer and it costs ingame gold. Its just another perk. Wow used to have something similar with self res shamans and in a dungeon setting you can easily put a limit on how many are allowed per encounter, like battle reses. Not a big deal.

    As for the path stuff, they are supposed to push out content every month or so so Im sure itll take a while to get it all. Have the fun for scientists type is knowing that they got it all, and when new content comes out, they go rushing to add and finish it.
    Im not overly worried about that.

    Edit: Also after listening to the video a bit more they seem to be using the telegraphs as a way to promote synergies between classes. Drop an aoe here, then the warriors kicks stuff in - Ill be interested to see how this works in big raid sizes.
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  6. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have to agree with pretty much everything you said, especially the pay-to-respawn part. I'm shocked that something like this ever made it into the game. Why do games these days not have real penalties for dying? Give us a reason to actually try to not die while leveling.

    Very nice post!
  7. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Going to add that the scientist path seems tailored to folks who for example in wow got the loremaster title - I went out of my way to do it before and after cataclysm just because I could. The rewards for the scientist seem pretty neat actually, like learn enough about wolves so that you earn a title based on it .
    Its pretty neat and makes me reconsider my settler viewpoint.

    edit: However going to back to my earlier post, I do agree that the self res is bordering on just no. I can live with it if its just a one off thing but not to many things like that.
    I can see it being used a lot by explorers or soldiers actually to get another chance at a hard puzzle/fight without having to run all the way back to that point. But I hope in dungeons, battlegrounds and so on , its limited to one person per fight kinda thing.
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  8. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    The livesteam about combat going on now the dev said telegraphs are just a small part of combat and you cant design entire things around them. Its more of a recognise , react and get rewarded idea.
  9. Azalus

    Azalus Cupcake

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    It also looked like when he did his respawn, he at least came back to life with some sort of res sickness, which would make it difficult to res and gank your ganker depending on how hard it gimps you.
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  10. alan

    alan Cupcake

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    I'm not hatting the telegraphs as much as you are. You see them as the main part of combat, I see them as enhancing awareness in combat and give you more to do about it. I'm going to use WoW here for an example. Bosses have auto attacks, as long as the are near someone (the tank) they are swinging every so many seconds. This makes tanking stats useful, which you need useful tanking stats in a holy trinity game. Otherwise you could just have another dps tank that was good at dodging stuff. Now WoW had something similar to telegraphs, pretty much if it was a dodgable attack, there would be a puff of smoke or some red cracks in the ground right before it went off. But that stuff is hard to see, specially in raids... That's what takes my eyes away from the fight, trying to see a glimpse off that little <REDACTED> on the ground in a mess of abilities everyone else is using. It's very hard to do, I actually need addons to tell me when I'm standing in stuff , because in a 25 man raid, I cannot always see it. I could not imagine a 40 man raid... Sure maybe it could be prettier, but it servers its purpose, showing that you can dodge this attack here at a glimpse of the screen.
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  11. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    To be fair, this is more of a personal problem. I had no issue catching when he pulled the additional mob.

    Every attack in TERA was not telegraphed. The point of having a dodging system is to add measures of difficulty.

    :laugh:

    I don't think these are supposed to be very difficult. I think they're supposed to be kind of casual, solo content, like when you buy a plot of land for your house and have to clear it of mobs first.

    - The Soldier path isn't the only one that will grant you abilities you can use in combat.
    - Scientists, like Explorers, will be able to open up areas that no other path can access. These areas may include extra dungeon bosses for your 1% guild to farm. You'll want them.
    - You post a screen shot of your previous exploratory exploits that garnered you no reward and then ask what the incentive is for playing an Explorer. I'm not getting the point.
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  12. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Currently , telegraphs visible are boss ones and yours and helpful ones - in pvp cant see enemy players but they are experimenting with this and may add option to turn on or off down the line.
  13. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    In WoW though the Telegraphs were spell effects...they looked like spells....not intrusive giant blinking rectangles and circles which have no spell effect at all. This is why I said it really breaks immersion...because its something so unnatural rather than fluid with the internal spell effects.

    That is why I added a graphical perspective this time on the system...they just don't fit the games art style or art effects at all. They are ugly.
  14. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Until they say I can complete the game with them turned entirely off all the time...I'll be uncomfortable with the system. As soon as I can disable the giant blinking boxes and circles from my vision and can focus on the spell effects and bosses movements (true telegraphs) to know when to dodge I'll feel that is a 1% challenge.

    Without that option (and i mean the fights still be viable) I will have my doubts about the system as a whole.
  15. alan

    alan Cupcake

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    It's a balance between whats easy to see and what looks better. If people are supposed to dodge it and cant see it, what good is that?? what would be your solution be... something easy to see, yet looks pretty?
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  16. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    12 million people have played WoW just fine for 8 years I'm pretty sure they can see spell effects just fine (Some way better than others) but none the less I'd dare say people being incapable of seeing spells is not the reason for giant blinking geometry in Wildstar.
  17. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I'll give my own feedback on these issues.

    Telegraphs
    I agree somewhat on the telegraphs, but not to the same degree. Over time I'm sure I would get used to it or not even mind it perhaps. However, I do think telegraphs ought to be substituted for more advanced graphical displays that resemble what the attack will be like. There are a lot of examples of this from WoW where the ground begins to create dust clouds below your feet and later, earth spikes rise up from the earth to do damage. If they could do that, telegraphs would be perfect. Even so, I can tolerate how they are now.

    As for the apparent glitchiness and inaccuracies of the telegraphs, I would be surprised if that isn't fixed by late beta or launch. Releasing a product where many telegraphs aren't accurate would be disastrous for the game. If Carbine overlooks this, then they're shooting themselves in the foot. It's an obvious focus for beta without a doubt.

    Respawn
    If you can rez immediately after death ALL of the time or in PvP and raids, that would be a serious issue. However, I'd have to play the game myself to know how it'll work in depth. For all we know they're just showing a demo version that has that built in for convenience of show. Overall, I think it's far too soon to make a judgment on it. Again, this is an issue with obvious flaws but if it does exist, it'll likely be for open world content which will exclude most competitive content. The only issue would be for world PvP encounters. There would have to be an obvious limit to this respawn, otherwise people will just respawn endlessly after death and neither PvPer will decisively kill the other.

    Very likely what you saw was either just a demo or a limited use version meant for open world gameplay only. Something like this in instanced PvE or PvP content is an obvious flaw in design so I don't expect it to go live as you have envisioned it.

    Paths
    The settler is likely the only path to have limitless path content available simply by its design. There are only so many places to explore in a game for explorers, so many mobs and missions that'll be included in the game to complete for soldiers, and things to find and discover throughout the world for scientists. Some of this content might be repeatable like dailies are, but otherwise the content is finite for all of them. Even settlers have a lot of finite content in what they'll be able to build and create, but they will be able to constantly have "content" to do by providing upkeep on various structures. Obviously this'll be alleviated similar to how finite raid content is dealt with: patches filled with new content. Therefore, I'm not worried about this.

    Your concerns about soldier abilities are a valid concern, but perhaps that is how Carbine envisioned it since raiding and PvP is precisely about going around to kill creatures and players. They did say paths were meant to suit various play-styles and not just like a different kind of tradeskill, which would make the soldier a perfect representation of the 1% so to speak. However, I do think performance enhancing abilities, while they make a lot of sense to their respective paths, aren't appropriate if what your path does isn't exclusive to your one path. For all we know though, these abilities might act as raid buffs (like heroism/bloodlust in WoW) and thus shouldn't end up being a factor in min/maxing since you'll only need one soldier for your 20 or 40 man (which should be easy to do). Plus, these abilities could always be disabled in instanced places like BGs, arenas, and raids too, thus alleviating the problem that way as well.

    If scientists do become the nerdpoint guys, that would again be a huge mistake for Carbine. Pigeonholing play-styles would be a huge mistake as several players play MMOs precisely because you can pursue various "paths", if you will, of satisfaction and fun that doesn't require slaughtering monsters or players. WoW has all achievements available to all classes and trades/professions. I would be surprised and very disappointed if Carbine decides to deviate from this by reserving some achievements to scientists only. Perhaps scientists can get certain achievements easier than others, but all achievements should be possible for ALL races, classes, and paths. Perhaps it's worth inquiring at the next dev interview.

    To summarize, I think a lot of this is a wait-and-see scenario. I have a hard time believing Carbine would make such bad decisions considering their past claims so I can only assume there will be exceptions to these potential flaws.
  18. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    the pay to resapwn is once every 30minutes btw

    (saw this on some gamplay video cant find the source now)

    Tera has no telegraphs, but the combat is slow paced to the point where you can dodge everything with no worries, they said that telegraphs are not the only thing players will have to be aware off, they are just there so that people can understand what is happening, and trough this they can create more elaborate fights that needs more from the player then just getting that rotation right whle not standing on fire.
  19. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    One of my main concerns comes down to the fact that while you are saying "Paths" suite a play style...what if I am an MMOer who enjoys 3 of the 4 play styles?

    I like to explore, I like to kill all the stuffs, and I like to build camps for my other guildies before raid.

    O_O Why can I not do all 3 things? I like all 3 things? I have time to do all 3 things?

    Pigeon-holed.

    =[
  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I mentioned that briefly in my OP but I might not have been clear. I was speculating that it might've been the whole point of paths to be designed that way. However, I do agree with you. Some of us have multiple play-styles. I would probably play a soldier, explorer, and the scientist paths all on one character if I could. I would think Carbine would not fall for obvious mistakes such as assuming people will only focus on certain content only. I believe I heard somewhere that they said paths were more about providing additional content and another avenue of progression for those playstyles. If so, then the paths should only include the ability to access path-exclusive content and not as a tool to min/max for other fields of play.

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