Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Leiloni, Oct 22, 2013.
You mean you don't already? Rocket Raccoon would be so disappointed in you!
Don't ask me. I'm not your mother.
Oooh, will you be my sugah daddy?
He would only be disappointed if I didn't celebrate each post by shooting an unfeasibly large gun
Not entirely accurate, but I must say I like the cut of your jib!
Oh, right, how could I forget about that, lol.
Yeeeah that was lame as balls. I've always been more of a PvE player, but going into pvp with almost a million HP and doing as much damage was kind of lame, true that.
It sounds like the original author has made assumptions on how these heals will work. If all he was told was that each class has a self heal it really dose not tell us anything and he/she has written their article with those assumptions and not facts. Let's not jump to conclusions without having all the facts such as:
What is the cooldown on this self heal?
How strong is this self heal?
Is it one of your selectable skills on your limited action bar?
What other self healing options do you have?
I am sure there are other things that I have forgotten as well, but before you turn a mole hill into a mountain I would suggest you have all the facts to help you make an informed opinion.
Too little too late.
Yea, but to be far, how many posts in this thread assumed the same thing.
Perhaps a few but at this point the argument's flaw has been pointed out since a long time ago. Thread's pretty much done now.
atleast till we know what the heals do... but then someone will probably start a new thread instead... even though it should be here... but w/e...
Self heals are necessary. Without them, eery non-healer class is just in a battle of attrition that they can't recover from. Now, healers should obviously have the best self heals, and the heals of other classes should be insufficient for just letting you face-tank things, but they do give you some option for restoring your own HP during a long battle, if you're clever about avoiding incoming damage. I highly doubt we'll see major dungeon runs and raids in which DPS and Tanks are expected to manage their own HP like in some other games.
Clearly you didn't play WoW pre Wrath. Rogues kicked ass cuz evasion, Warriors kicked ass cuz of mitigation, Pallys didn't do as much damage cuz they had heals. Mages nuked things while Priests couldn't keep up in quick fights. The problem arises currently in Panda where everyone but Mages have heals of some kind and Mages are the biggest pains in the rear to level now because of it. They had to make every fight harder while the squishy, no heal Mages are still playing the cc, kite game of old WoW. This runs in the problems of how long fights are, how many fights have adds, how many pats are in the areas, how close each mob is, and how fast respawns are. It's not impossible, it's just not fun when a Shaman can just chain lightning kill every mob and walk away.
All I mean is self heals aren't necessary at all.
No one's "self heal" should be better unless their gear is making it so. I don't know if you are exactly agreeing with that statement or not. Esper as DPS should not self heal better than a Stalker of any kind.
I'm not worried about this "1 self heal per class" because that means I'm expecting to see 7/8 necessary abilities in damage rotations. That means you ONLY get that one heal as a DPS but at what cost?
That sounds like the problem is that mages don't have heals. You can't give most classes a heal and not one of them and expect that to be easy to balance. You balance it so that everyone has heals.
Well, it depends on how things are balanced. If a character balances himself towards being a "pro healer," then his DPS and damage reduction should be lower than characters who are balanced towards DPS or tank, meaning it'll take him longer to kill, and takes more damage from each attack. The trade-off should be that he can negate a lot of that damage, and if he can afford to avoid damage for any length of time it should be hard to finish him off.
Sure. The way I see it is, let's say you have a combat scenario in which both you and the enemy have 100HP, and each deals 10 HP every ten seconds. That means that if you just keep bashing each other, the fight ends in 100 seconds with a double KO. I'm aware that this is not how things usually work out, but roll with me. The way I see it, if you have no heal, then it's just a flat race to the bottom. If you find yourself behind the curve, then it's over. Even if you can manage to avoid all incoming damage for several "turns," you aren't going to get any better until you break combat entirely and reset the whole encounter.
With even a fairly minor heal, on the other hand, say being able to recover even just 20HP per 100 seconds, you could manage to avoid damage for a bit (like dodging a lot or hiding behind terrain) and recover a portion of that damage. It might not be enough to turn the tide, and the enemy might have similar options too, much it adds a layer of complexity to the encounter by making damage a "push/pull" element rather than just a "push" element, and it gives some element of hope to a potentially losing battle.
I would expect a better heal than that, but that's just an example.
And btw, I didn't mean my comments to be taken as "without self heals, healers are better than other classes," clearly if the game is balanced as such DPSs can outdamage a healer's mitigation and the healer goes down. I just meant that without a self heal, damage only goes in one direction, down, and that means that if you see the damage piling up faster than you can survive, there's nothing you can do about it.
I personally do not like the idea... I like really fast out of combat regen, without the need for food and stuff (quality of life, little downtime to get back into the action). I mean, you are out of combat, so regen away. But in-combat, I prefer to have the different roles well lined out.
Of course, this can be balanced in battlegrounds, etc. If out of combat regen is too fast there, it could unbalance things. But anyway, keep the roles separated, and make out of combat regen fast so we can get back to the fight quickly regardless of class.
Having self-heals doesn't change this. A heal is nothing more than a pool of latent HP that consumes some mana and a GCD to actualize. Its just a freebie heal pot on a separate cooldown. It turns your 100hp vs 100hp (from a later post) into a 120hp vs 100hp+1GCD fight. And nothing more. The basic dynamics of the fight are unchanged.
If the cooldown on the heal is long enough that you may or may not have it in any given fight (i.e. CD is longer than 2 or 3 fights or whatever) then there is some game involved - a decision with consequences. If its a short enough cooldown that you just include it in a regular rotation, then that's silly. Is what I was getting at in my posts farther up thread.
This does result in a fact that a heal of this sort is either so weak as to be useless or so powerful as to be essential. And in that way reduces choice.
But this attrition biz has nothing to do with anything.
Not if it's done right. Done right it presents a tactical choice, "Do I sacrificed immediant DPS to use a bonus health pool, or do I hope I can finish him off before he finishes me?" Also, unless the character auto regens health during combat (which is one form of self healing), then health won't rise during combat. Yes, if you're just playing roshambo, then it's still on a generally downward trend, but if you can manage to avoid attacks for a bit, you can give your self heal time to recharge. A Thief, for example, could use Stealth and evasion to avoid damage for a while. Of coufse while you're avoiding damage you aren't dealing damage, which without a heal would be a pointless stalling tactic, but if stalling for time gives you a chance to heal back up, it can be worth doing.
If I recall the "heal" they had for the game demo was on everyone's bar but I don't remember it doing that much when I used it at Comic Con. More like a health pot-ish effect then a "real" heal... but then again I spent most my time leaping around and spinning to win.
It's not much of a choice though, is it? Maybe in the last % of the fight, and it's still unlikely to be much a choice. If the choice is between gaining health and dying, people will always pick gaining health. Personally I can't say I've ever felt like it was more of a choice than whether or not I put on socks in the morning, in any MMO I've played. You're damaged, you can heal yourself, you do so, you keep fighting. Simples.
So if you were within 10% damage of dying, and your opponent was within 10% chance of dying, and you knew you had an attack that could deal over 10%, you would never consider taking that shot, potentially killing the opponent and preventing any further damage to you, over healing back 20% health so that you'd be only slightly ahead of where you were at? I can't say as I've always been that cautious in the past.
All I can say is, I've played MMOs without self-heals, and I've played MMOs with them, and in my own experience, the ones with self heals felt like they offered more tactical control over my own health bar, more options than just "DPS as fast as possible," and a better feeling of control over my character's destiny, rather than just feeling that I was on a DPS timer from the moment the fight started that would inevitably reach zero at some point.