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Self healing for every class

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Leiloni, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    Stun, immobilizes, blind, confuse, fear, mind control, misdirection, absorb, block, reflect, avoid, immune, vanish and I'm sure there are other options out there that I've left out besides just dps and heal.
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  2. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    So "CC" and "tank." Yeah, there's CC, but all CC is is a delaying tactic, a way of slowing the drop to zero. Heals actually take it back up. No matter what CCs you use, if you start with 50% HP you're going to end with less than 50% HP. With a decent heal, if you play your cards right you can start with 50% HP end a fight with full health.

    Ideally a character has DPS, CC, tank, AND heal to work with, in varying amounts, and has to choose which to use and under what circumstances. It makes you far more reactive to the situation on the field, because if all you do is a set rotation, if an enemy does more spiky damage than average you'd be dead before you know it, while if they do slower damage than usual you'd be leaving DPS on the floor to burn defenses you didn't need.
  3. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are classes in MMOs that have had more then enough cc/kite potential to end with the same %hp they started with while soloing. Even if you lack the necessary kit for that here you should be fine since WS out of combat hp and shield regen should allow you to start most fights at full or recover after a difficult encounter without undue pause. I suppose they could incorporate sustainable self healing into every class on top of the already implemented elements to compensate for concerned less experienced players so they can forgo the use of other class mechanics.
  4. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Self-heals are completely and entirely unnecessary :) Especially in a game being designed to promote group/team play at every opportunity. The more things people can do alone, they more they will play alone.

    Also, it seems characters will have access to abilities to mitigate damage to themselves in the form of crowd control, escape, pure mitigation abilities, etc. Smart use of those mitigate the need for self-heals.

    Even then, I played a rogue in WoW for 9 years without a self-heal. They finally added one some time in the last expansion, but, after 9 years of over-development and homogenization, it couldn't be avoided. WildStar on the other hand isn't born yet. Carbine still has the chance to redefine team play and complementary abilities for their game.

    Just sayin' :)
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  5. Flinder

    Flinder Cupcake

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    Well, I won't dispute any of that. My point was that having self heals doesn't transform the nature of a fight. In your super-simple thought experiment, if side B can use his +1GCD to do more than 20hp of damage, then the heal was probably waste of a GCD and if he does less than 20hp with it then it was worth casting.

    I don't, myself, have much of an opinion about this and I sure don't think that having or not having a self-heal on non-healer classes will make or break the game. If they include one I'll use it and if they don't, I won't lament its absence. Like I said, its just a heal pot I don't have to buy or make and carry around.

    The original framing of the issue was equalizing classes for solo efficiency. Which I take to mean berry picking quests and dailies and so forth. And a self heal is not necessary for accomplishing that kind of equalization. People seem to be talking mostly about pvp settings because they always do. But that's not what this was at first about. This does illustrate, though, how pve and pvp considerations can't help but echo into each other.
  6. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Perhaps (although if you can end a fight without losing a single tick of HP then there seems to be something wrong there), but my point was that with heals you can end up with MORe HP than you started with, which is impossible when your abilities are only designed to slow the bleed.

    I would hope so. Whether they have in-combat heals or not, forcing players to sit around after each fight for their health to recover is a terrible gamedev sin in this day and age. I still have horrible memories of early MMOs that required you to sit around or even use consumables outside for combat.

    That could be a problem, it would probably make things too easy. Whatever healing mechanics they add, the game should be balanced to require their use. If you could ignore the heal and still do ok in the fight, then with the heal you'd be unstoppable. Of course, if it's optional to slot it then a player could still be balanced by not slotting it, and usual whatever CC or DPS ability he slotted instead to make up the difference.

    Yeah, like I said, in a roshambo situation it's not all that important. In a highly mobile MMO though (which this game purports to be) having heals can be very important. I'll give you a more practical example. Last night I was playing a solo encounter with a fairly class cannon D/D Elementalist. My stats were mostly in damage and crit, fairly minimal on defense. I was fighting an encounter against one enemy that I could only damage while I was standing still in a certain part of the room, who would disappear and replace himself with 5-ish enemies at 80 and 50% HP.

    With my glass cannon build, if I attempted to face tank this opponent, I'd die, several times. However, my character had several heal options. I was built in such a way that every 25 seconds I could cast a heal for about 25-30% of my total HP, every 10s or so I can dodge roll to give myself a minor heal, and when I'm in one of my four attunements I have one blast heal and one channeled heal/damage move. Again though, if I just face-tanked the encounter and spammed my heals as often as possible, I would still die. However, the room the fight is in is shaped vaguely like a doughnut, with a rocky pillar in the middle. When I was taking too much damage, I could start looping the pillar, taking as little damage as possible by breaking the enemy's line of sight, giving my heals more time to come off cooldown and to apply their effects without simultaneously taking damage. Once in a better shape, I could come to a stop and start dealing damage again.

    It isn't nearly as fast as if I had a team backing me, or even than if I'd been running a more balanced build, but it did allow me to complete a mission that would have otherwise been impossible, by using my heals tactically.

    I think trying to balance PvE based on PvP considerations is a losing battle. They need to be considered separately.
  7. Flinder

    Flinder Cupcake

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    I gotta ask - are you using the South Park meaning of "roshambo" or the rock-paper-scissors meaning?

    Not that it really matters - just curious in what way you are characterizing a PVP fight.
  8. Sonntam

    Sonntam Cupcake-About-Town

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    What you describe sounds very much like a solo dungeon. And considering all classes and specs should be viable in this path of progression, the self-heals may be absolutely necessary for those.

    What concerns dungeons or raids your heals will be far too inefficient to be used as a DPS. In PvP they may be useful, but in the end it just comes down to balancing spells properly.

    The only issue is perhaps levelling: but considering how easy it is to pull several mobs and how brutal they tend to be, a couple self-heals may save you... but also while you try to use LOS to hide in a safe spot and heal up a bit, you may just aggro more mobs and get into even more trouble.

    I feel that in many cases it will be more beneficial just to nuke it out and pray for the best, rather than to run with a survival spec wihle questing.
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  9. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your HP total after a fight is not important. In terms of speed of questing it is a combination of kill speed and downtime. Self heals can reduce downtime, especially if they can be cast on the move between quest objectives, however, some sort off CC ability could do the same thing to cut down on the length of downtime by allowing you to avoid damage, the CC can also increase kill speed if the CC stops the mob from avoiding damage or sets up another skill, e.g. a positional based or status based skill (which the heal likely will not). You also can reduce the downtime of travel with a movement ability, so even with questing speed self-heals are not necessary, and may not be an ideal choice.

    In your scenario, all that healing provided was time for you to output DPS, but if that mob could be CCd, then a CC could provide the same time period to dps. You could potentially avoid damage (or mitigate damage with a defensive CD), instead of having to heal. You would need to do the same kiting/avoiding in both scenarios to allow for CDs to come back. Now certainly, if CC/kiting/mitigation are not valid options, then heals are required, and all classes must have them in a solo context, but they are not per se necessary.

    On a related, but somewhat different note: One advantage that a self heal has over another ability is that it is guaranteed to hit, compared to a free-form damage or CC ability. This consideration is more important in PVP certainly, but it is a balance consideration.
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  10. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    I don't mind so much as long as it is not stupidly powerful in pvp. If it takes up a slot on our limited action set it will probably balance itself.
    The big problem with self heals from DPS/tank classes in wow was that typically required very little, if anything, to be given up (warriors had a heal they could use after killing a player if they hit someone else within a limited time) and at one point the recup from a rogue also helped restore energy making it a good, although not the best, DPS ability too. #Idontplaywownowsodontknowhowtheabilitycurrentlyworksjusttalkingaboutinthepast

    (Before anyone rages hard I played a rogue in wow. Recup was OP at times, get over it)
  11. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    I wouldn't necessarily consider it a guaranteed hit since well timed CC could interrupt the heal. If the ability goes on CD due to an interrupted cast then it can alter your effective health.

    *edit: Unless, of coarse, the ability was instant cast or otherwise not able to be interrupted. Thought there have also been "reduced healing" debuffs in games before so that would need to be considered if present as a viable counter play.
  12. sidhia

    sidhia Cupcake

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    If you can only have 6 abilities and the heal has a long cool down...i don't see it being worth the slot in PVP
  13. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thought it was currently 8.
  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    6 class, 1 racial, 1 path last I checked.
  15. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    That wasn't specifically refering to anything PvP-specific, it was referring to the sort of fight in which two opponents just stand there, facing each other, and launching powers until one of them falls over (in either PvP or PvE). This would be as opposed to a more action-based fight, in which the characters are not only activating abilities, but also moving around the battlefield, using the terrain to their advantage, and actively denying their opponent as many shots against them as they can.

    So while some tactics are not super helpful when all attacks can be assumed to land, when players have a good capability to avoid damage for several seconds heals can become far more useful.

    Oh, probably. When you have professional healers around, professional healing is preferable. Dungeons that require five players should require at least one healer, or everyone to have solid, geared up heal. If you're raiding with 40 people, you'll need to have a good number of healers in there, and likely shouldn't bother slotting your self heal. Hopefully though, there will be plenty of content that doesn't require a well-regulated group.

    You put together a lot of confusing concepts in this paragraph. Yes, CCs are good, but ideally you'd have both CCs and Heals to work with. The more tactical options, the better. And yes, movement abilities are good, but those have little to do with healing downtime anyways. It doesn't matter whether it takes you thirty seconds or sixty seconds to get to the next target, if within 30 seconds you aren't healed up and ready to go you still have to sit around waiting before you can actually get in there.

    Only if it were a pure CC that prevented damage (some do not, like roots), but again, good healing capability can give you much more benefit than a CC or two. The only way CC could compare to healing 1:1 is if the CC capabilities are so good you can chain CC for long periods of time, which typically gets nerfed ASAP. The distinction between healing and CC/DPS is that healing is all about you (in most cases), and you can do it while completely out of LoS, while CC/DPS typically is about the target, meaning if you can fire it at them, they can fire back at something at you. Healing is one of the few effects you can activate while denying LoS.

    Yeah, though in WoW you had infinite toolbars to work with, so slotting a heal didn't take anything away.
  16. sebilicious

    sebilicious New Cupcake

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    Just like OP, I got no problem with the standard health potions and bandages. But actual healing spells... it depends I guess. If it's some kind of out of combat long-ass channeling spell then sure, I can live with it. But other than that - leave the real healing to us healers! Just my two cents.
  17. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Where did the "Gadget" slot come in? Or, am I just hallucinating that? I can't remember, I haven't been sleeping.
  18. oppi26

    oppi26 Cupcake

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    so question for everyone that says this same thing: if you only get 8/9 hotbars and they're all abilities, where are these postions gonna be?

    I mean sure you can use em for inventory, but are there even potions in game?

    What if this heal... IS the healing potion?
  19. MacHaggis

    MacHaggis Cupcake

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    You CAN add more slots to your UI to put random stuff in. You can only use 8 abilities though.
  20. oppi26

    oppi26 Cupcake

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    is this confirmed or are you talking about ui addons? cuz if it's addons, my question still stands.

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