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*sigh* Sorry, but I have to ask. Operating Systems?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by VooDoo, Sep 16, 2011.

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  1. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is 10% at the peak of the estimates I have seen recently (last 12 months), usually more towards 7-8%. That is a very small minority. And, many of those users aren't gamers (who chose the Mac in the first place because gaming isn't important to them).

    You're assuming that those players wouldn't just dual-boot Windows or don't also own a PC... ;) I assure you, many of them do.

    Content as in models, art, story, quests, etc. is shareable, but much of the actual client code (rendering, patching, sound engine, driver interactions, etc.) is not always shareable, and much of it requires minor changes even if it's mostly portable, not to mention further support from customer service, another round of QA testing, and an extra fork of development, plus coder time. It's really not a simple, easily quantifiable "10-20% effort", nor is it a sure "easily compensated" workload.

    "Boot Camp" is a completely reasonable thing to use. Dual-booting OS versions has been done for decades, be it from DOS to Windows, different Windows versions, or Windows + Linux, etc. etc. Your mac is just another PC with OS X loaded on it. I don't see how you can call using Windows "dumbing down" a computer.... it's only the vast majority (90%+) of the market. I also sincerely doubt most Mac users share your viewpoint of spending $80-100 for a Windows license being an onerous expense to add gaming, when you're already overpaying for the hardware by a margin in the hundreds of percentage points oftentimes.

    The Mac is still a tiny minority... google-fu is very easy to turn up proper statistics on this. :) And, as I already illustrated, it's not so simple as to say "X potential customers" especially with a mostly-production-oriented userbase as Macs have.
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  2. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I'm not going to get into this with you.

    I'll just leave you with this to ponder... Companies, like Blizzard, ArenaNet and every other MMO studio with a Mac version don't use "google-fu". They have proprietary research and that research tells them the Mac market is very much worth pursuing.

    Anyone that thinks otherwise has their head buried in 1998.
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  3. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    I work as a software developer, and I was never implying or saying that companies base their market research on googling, so please do not try to put words in my mouth here... I haven't done that to you. As you can tell by the vast majority of titles that DON'T support mac natively, let alone even with a wrapper like a handful of major MMO's use, the market is not well-supported or viewed as terribly profitable by companies. In fact, inside the industry, a Mac version is often viewed as more of a PR move than something likely to produce much income directly. It's hardly backwards-ancient 1998 thinking to understand the reality of the situation here :).
  4. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    You're making generalized (and incorrect) statements.

    "Vast majority of titles?" Let's narrow that down to what we're actually talking about here - "triple-A MMOs" - and see what the Mac support graph looks like.

    And, I assure you, companies do not support the Mac as a "PR move," They are business, in business to make a profit (and if they're a public company, beholden to shareholders to do so.) When studios have to lay off very real people, the last thing are doing is pulling PR stunts.

    Supporting the Mac with software is simply good business. The big MMO studios know this.

    Also, you're not the only software developer on the forums :)
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  5. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    By "PR stunt" I am referring to as in to generate goodwill for the company/title... but regardless, my main point is that you shouldn't kid yourself: Macs are a tiny, tiny part of the userbase of computers, and have been for decades. I wouldn't wait around hoping that any given title is going to give native or ported support to it, if you want to play that game... it is very easy to work around as an end user by simply installing Windows ;). Mac support lags for a reason, and it's not because it's a major moneymaking market with huge potential for profits ;).
  6. Malisent

    Malisent Cupcake-About-Town

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    I too am a software developer (btw, developing software does not necessitate being platform conscious :p).. but I know almost zero about Apple products. I ran guilds in WoW for years, and never ran across a raider or heavy PvPer in my time in WoW (keeping in mind that I left after the first tier of Cataclysm) who played on an OSX. All the raiders were on PC, and some had more 'casual friends and family' on Macs or some sort of ported options. Now maybe my experience was unusual. Selfishly, adding resources for multi-platform development or things like voice-chat always concern me, as I imagine a lot of dev time gets pushed to those. Put I am truly curious here.. is porting a Windows game to OSX that difficult? I assumed it was based on the WS panel responses, but I am actually curious to learn more about it.
  7. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    The answer, as with many things is, "it depends". However, at minimum you need a wrapper, QA testing time, an extra code fork to interact with the wrapper, and to train your CSR's to handle OS-related issues (which most will only be familiar with Windows). Other things that are often but not always required, and this depends on how the engine is built, how the game's structured on the code end, and all that good stuff, can include partial rewrites of the renderer (for native OpenGL support and performance reasons), sound system, input handling, etc. as well.

    Anecdotally I'll also chip in that I haven't run with any "mac-only" players since gaming in MMO's from EQ1 launch onward. I also (call it selfish or not) would rather see the dev time and resources being put into furthering the actual game with further systems, than making a client for OSX for the handful of people who refuse to run Windows on a dual-boot, who are already just part of a tiny slice of the market.
  8. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    You keep saying things, but you need look no further than the "store shelves" for proof of your error - every major triple-A MMO title has Mac support. The Elder Scrolls will also ship simultaneously with native Mac support.

    Don't listen to me, listen to the market - it has spoken, and the developers are listening.

    If you're really a software developer working on shipping, commercial products, ignorance of the current situation is doing your company a disservice.
  9. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    Oh, Gods... This debate again. I hope you get a Mac client eventually, Lethal.
  10. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    Please at least read the points I am making and respond to those, rather than trying to insult on a personal level. You keep rambling about how "the market has spoken", but not looking at the overall market, the reasoning some titles offer OSX support, etc., the actual size of the Mac market, etc. which is what I have been discussing.

    I also have mentioned that you shouldn't rely on the hope that a Mac port will be there, if you're interested in playing: plunk down the $80-100 and buy Windows, to dual-boot with. You'll never have to worry about a game supporting Mac again. You can "fix" it yourself. Heck, you can probably bum a Windows license off of an old notebook you own or something to use as a base for an upgrade... for awhile you could have gotten Windows 8 for $40 doing that recently ;).
  11. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    It's not a trivial thing, but also... not rocket science. Every one of those disciplines already exists in the software development workflow, and minimal investment to open your product up to an entirely new market.

    The fact is, the single largest source of "new" customers would be delivering for the Mac. Making "more" or "better" doesn't bring in the revenue that selling to Mac users does.

    Here's some non-anecdotal evidence for you that points the Mac portion of the WoW player base being closer to 30%. Still chump change?

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/21/breakfast-topic-how-many-of-you-play-on-a-mac/

    Again, the major MMO studios think not.
  12. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thing is, it's not an "entirely new market", which if you had read the points I already made... you'd know, from basic logic (not many ONLY own OSX and don't use Windows at all, and Macs are notoriously known for "production" instead of general use and gaming as a market type). Making your product bigger, better, etc. certainly does bring in revenue as it will be more attractive to potential customers. And, I'm sorry, but a survey from 3 and a half years ago on a WOW fan site in an article specifically calling out to Mac users to vote, is hardly a real point of data to go off of. Nor does it really bear much relevance when the overall market share is only 10%/less, if you're going to just use the whole "potential customers" thing as your only point to care about as to whether it's worth it to create a Mac client.

    And, among gamers, OSX is 4-5% or less typically, on the Steam hardware survey: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey which is the largest and best benchmark publicly available to link to, for telling what hardware or OS gamers (which is what Steam, a games service, is comprised of) use.
  13. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Our very own proprietary research actually *does* show that most Mac users (north of 90%) do not buy Windows and do not dual-boot. And do you know what the least likely subset of that group is? Consumers! Mac owners buy a Mac for a reason - to stay away from Windows. They simply do not boot into that environment to play games, and if they do, they bought the wrong computer in the first place.

    You are entitled to your opinion on the topic... I'm not trying to sell *you* on getting a Mac. I'm just pointing out that the market is real, it's large, and represents a grand opportunity for an entertainment software developer who's product already runs on something barely a sneeze away. It's the strongest ROI argument you can make. Most studios are taking advantage of that now.
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  14. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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    Really, this is all tangential to the actual topic where a solution was provided. As far as gamers themselves go, see my quote from before...

    You keep leaving major pieces of my posts out when responding to them. Anyway, I've said what I have to say on my opinion here, and provided the facts I think are relevant. Additionally multiple viable solutions have been provided for people who want to play WS on a mac if no port is there at launch... so I think I'll stop beating this argument we're having into horse paste for now ;).
  15. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    Just to keep to OP: Windows 7. I love Linux, but I love my games and programs more.
  16. Mike Bedar

    Mike Bedar New Cupcake

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    Well Said - As a Mac user I have often used Boot Camp to run a game that was not available natively, and it works great.. the thing is that rebooting my computer to play a game invariably gets old in a few days and I lose interest, regardless of how great that game might be. Blizzard is the best example of a company that does it right. Make Mac users a priority and we will return the love.

    WildStar looks like it could be an incredible game. It has exactly the type of quirkiness that can set it apart from the pack of new MMO's, and it seems like a natural fit for OSX users. As Lethality said, Mac's are not a niche anymore .

  17. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    If I didn't need DirectX to run all my games, I would switch to Linux in a second. The time it takes to port over to OSX probably isn't worth it at launch since they seem to be on a tight schedule, but I hope they create a Mac version for those 5% or 10% of people who want to play the game on their preferred OS.
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  18. Sick

    Sick Cupcake

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    I play on a MBP, and plan on using BootCamp in case WildStar doesn't have an OS X solution.
  19. Wayoverpowered

    Wayoverpowered Cupcake-About-Town

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  20. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

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    Oh no, you picked the wrong person to debate with about PC MAC. Wayoverpowered is a fellow Hardforum.com member.
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