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"Skill trees", "Skill Points", "Stat allocation", etc, nowhere to be found?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Xuphor, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Don't have the ambition to read this entire thread, but I scanned it and didn't see this so I will post it:

    We have a very clever solution to this that unfortunately isn't in the patch notes :(

    Actually I mentioned this in public but never saw it picked up: The costs of things in the Elder Advancement system (to be revealed later) is influenced by your race choice. So stuff you'd think would be natural to the Granok is much cheaper, requiring less elder advancement, while stuff you'd associate with, well, smarter races is more expensive.

    This way you can't permanently gimp yourself by a choice you made when you had the lowest information you'll ever have in the game (creating your first character) - but you can set yourself up with a little more work required for PvP or elder PvE optimality.
    ________________________________________________________________
    That was posted by Jeremy in one of the Q&A's.
    The costs of things in the Elder Advancement system (to be revealed later)...

    This "Elder+" (As I am calling it) system is sure to be some kind of talent tree or similar sort of set up.
    So you can add that to the list of other things such as Milestones, Attributes, Circuit Boards, Professions, Path Abilities, and the skills you choose to slot on your bar that are there for customization.
    ________________________________________________________________
    Also, there is this:
    It's only 7 "class" abilities in the current build, not 7 total abilities. Some abilities come from things other than your class. Paths, etc.

    The philosophy is to have the maximum number of abilities available that a highly skilled player can comfortably use without custom (macro keyboard etc) hardware.
    ________________________________________________________________
    That was also posted by Jeremy.
    Some abilities come from things other than your class. Paths, etc.

    The etc. here implies that there are more things that will be going on your bar, such as some profession skills or anything really.

    All in all, I don't think there will be any lack of customizing your character other than the fact that you can only use one weapon. To be honest they are probably putting in a TON of customization just for the purpose of making up for that.
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  2. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    If you already have plenty of options to be a special snowflake visually then why do you feel you need it stat wise? I can understand mechanics, not all classes should feel the same. Making yourself "different" stat wise is nothing more then self nerfing purely for the sake of being different. There is a reason cookie cutters exist, why are you trying to set that aside?
  3. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only real problem I have with that system, is that they're usually poorly developed trees. If they tuned it properly, specs could be very different from one another using talent trees.

    But if they're enahncing/replacing/supplementing that with this circuit board system and there are LOTS of solid options, then problem solved. :D
  4. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

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    At a guess, because varying stats will vary your playstyle by unlocking new abilities via milestones. Given the whole paths system is designed to allow you to play the way you want to, it makes sense if the rest of the game is built with that in mind too. And cookie cutters represent a failure on the part of the game designers, they've failed to balance their character customisation options so that one and only one set is optimal; decisions = fun, so taking choice away from players is the antithesis of fun.
  5. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    You don't need skill points, or even stats really to customize your build. You don't need talent trees at all, in fact talent tree's seemed to make for less options in building your character.

    What you need to do is get out of the WoW mind set and realize that not every game is going to be like WoW, that not every system needs to be like WoW, and that WoW didn't do everything the best way possible.

    There's lots of ways to offer customization to the classes, and from what we've seen and heard so far I think you'll be quite able to set up your class to preform like you wish.
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  6. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except its impossible to get rid of cookie cutters. There is always a "best" in a mathematical system. That is simply fact.
  7. Xuphor

    Xuphor New Cupcake

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    I hate WoW passionately, what you need to do is get out of the mindset that everyone else is comparing this game to WoW, especially when nearly every other MMO under the sun has skill trees. I know that TONS of people are, but when other people do, I'm just confused as hell by what they mean because I never liked WoW, thus never played much of it.
    You're complaining about people comparing this game to WoW, but guess what? You're the first person in this thread to do it.

    Really though, I know what you're saying, SWTOR didn't have real stat/skill point allocation and it kind of worked. It didn't work well, but it did technically work. The thing though, is that every MMO that does work has some type of skill tree esque system in it. That's just a fact. If you don't believe me, try to name a single successful ("successful" as in it's still running today, and not at risk of closing) MMORPG without one.
  8. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    You mean everyone isn't? So far on this site I've come across two types of people.

    People who seem to believe that WoW is the only MMO ever to be created and get confused or worried if something doesn't sound like will be a reash of how WoW did it.

    Then those of us who know better, have played other games and are interested in what WS will be like.

    IMO one of the things that caused SWTOR to fail, and there were many of them to be sure. Was that it tried too hard to be like WoW in some places and offered nothing new. In those places it didn't you had countless posts by people complaining that it wasn't just like WoW.

    So when someone asks about skill tree's and such. It's a pretty safe bet that they want the classes in this game to work like they do in WoW.

    The Secret World, Champions Online, and Star Trek Online are 3 I can think of off the top of my head that I've played that doesn't use anything even remotely like a skill tree. None of them are being closed anytime soon.
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  9. Xuphor

    Xuphor New Cupcake

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    I forgot about Champions Online, I have 3 max level characters in that game..... great game. Tempest master Archetype.

    The problem is that none of those 3 games you mentioned are publically successful. At the rate all of them are going, they'll probably close by year's end, especially The Secret World.

    But as for me, yea, you proved my point of view wrong with Champion's Online, and the fact it doesn't have any real skill tree system. I'll need to keep more open to Wildstar's system before fying off the handle and assuming it'll suck. I'm sorry for assuming such things.

    Now if only we can talk to Carbine about adding Champion Online's appearance editor to Wildstar. :p
  10. Genoshock

    Genoshock Cupcake-About-Town

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    not sure if this was already answered so: any time u get an item u can extract a chip from it ... be it ability chip power chip or utility :D however the item you get extracted gets destroyed :D
  11. Xuphor

    Xuphor New Cupcake

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    Thanks, but it was answered literally in the post right after I asked that, post #4. The question I asked was post #3.

    Post #4
    Don't know if you have that guy blocked or something, but I really don't know how you missed someone's answer when it's literally right after the question.
  12. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    I'm currently playing TSW and it has no sign of being closed down. They're hiring staff and trying to pick up their content production. There's no question it got off to a rocky start but it seems to be picking up steam again now.
  13. Genoshock

    Genoshock Cupcake-About-Town

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    just really lazy to read
  14. klineshrike

    klineshrike New Cupcake

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    And this makes games boring. No one likes to only play the same 2 characters in a fighting game. Being afraid of options because one will always be the best is just bad, bad design.

    There are many situations where being 1-5% weaker for the sake of doing something different (be it because you want to be unique or simply because the best is boring as hell to you) is perfectly valid, and NOT a wrong way to play. Unless you are elitist. And thats fine, but you have to remember there are people out there who do not think the way you do, and they like games too!

    Also, the whole 'special snowflake' derogetory comment basically is one of those things you say when you do not want to be taken seriously. It's just a symbol of a bad attitude.
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  15. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Right, it's a failure because they aren't more than human. It's not humanly possible to have unique class and spec and talents and have them all balanced. Even if you're close, the cookie cutter will still exist and it will be the one that pulls just a little more.


    TSW is actually holding fine and making money. It's been holding steady at 200k active players many of whom choose to pay monthly to the game and most of whom buy from the store. There's no risk of it shutting down.

    The problem with "publicly successful" is that if a game doesn't hold millions of players, it will not be seen in the public as a success. You hate WoW, I love WoW, but one of the effects of WoW that I don't like, is how high the bar has been raised for what's a successful MMO. Pre-WoW the most successful MMO was EQ1, at it's peak it held 500k subs IIRC. If a game holds that many now people will call it a failure. If you want a publicly successful game, your only option is WoW. If you want a REAL successful game, the fact that all three of those games are still advertising and holding strong at their numbers says they are.
  16. Xuphor

    Xuphor New Cupcake

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    Ok wait, we are getting way off topic here..... Isn't this thread about stat allocations/skill trees and the like? Not saying you're wrong (you're actually right), but this is just getting too off-topic.
  17. Menchi

    Menchi Cupcake-About-Town

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    To add to the list of games without skill trees that are relatively successful: Firefall, Eve, FFXI + FFXIV, GW2, and Darkfall (which I hated, but people are certainly playing.) Wasn't it mentioned that Camelot Unchained would also be skill tree-less? I could be mistaken as I'm not following that one. Oh, and WoW did away with theirs, so there's a pretty successful MMO with no "Skill Tree."

    Skill trees really only work in single player games, as has been mentioned. Unless you greatly homogenize all the abilities, but then what's the point?
  18. Shonk

    Shonk New Cupcake

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    Skill Tree systems were designed for single-player games, where balance could never be an issue. In multi-player games they become super cookie cutter, and even if you want to go a certain direction it's pretty hard to do it for fear of doing worse than everyone else. I have always been in favor of a "USE IT get better at it" system like Skyrim, but I can already tell that Wildstar has not been designed like that. I'm confident that Carbine will work something out that makes you feel like you are unique while keeping the balance. They seem to have a finger on the pulse of the community and will probably adjust it to make it something that people want.
  19. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'll echo the voices listing successful games without skill trees and will toss in GW1 (arguably an MMO, but inarguably successful over a fairly long period of time) as another game that did not have skill trees. I'd also point out that, to the extent that certain games may not have been as successful as their developers intended, the lack of skill trees was generally not singled out as one of the problems.

    Personally, I'll welcome seeing other options. I felt GW2's system was too constraining because too many skills were force-paired together, but a more free-form way of selecting skills could be welcome. I don't get much joy out of printing out talent selections and knowing that I'll be able to get a passive that gives me 1% more damage when I level. Getting a new skill I can actually use? That's a lot more fun.
  20. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Which is why I rather specifically mentioned that classes should be different.

    It has nothing to do with fear. It does not actually add anything meaningful to the game. There is no meaningful choice to nerfing yourself purely for the sake of being a rebel. Also, pretty sure "game design" does not mean what you think it means. I do not like that pawns can only move forwards, does not mean that chess is a poorly designed game.

    Except that never holds up. What happens is the inevitable "I like to play this way why is it worse" whine. It is next to impossible to balance a large number of abilities and keep them all feeling and acting differently. I believe it was stated that players would have access to 30 abilities for there bar, so between the 6 classes that is 180 right off the bat. Then you have all of the myriad creatures and what not on top of it. While there will certainly be repitition, but keeping it to a minimum is a huge plus. Adding a ton of abilities that are just not worthwile to use, or worse makes you want to use but lose efficiency for is a far bigger problem.

    Bad attitude? Huh? They have a lot in common with the emo teenagers who nobody ever understands, I guess that is just a ok too right? Reinforcement does wonders. Perhaps you should examine just what kind of outcome you want.

    What? A skill tree is nothing more than a way to organize abilities. It has literally nothing to do with balance at all.

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