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Smallest number of classes needed for a strong MMO launch?

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by TarkeCat, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That'd be really annoying to play as/against as a class if that's it's abilities. On the other hand I could see an ability for esper doing something like this, or possibly a CC that changes your enemies into friendlies and vice versa (actually replacing the models and such).
  2. THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!!

    THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!! Cupcake-About-Town

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    yeah thats what i meant a class that can change people for a short while

    ooooooooh that gave me and idea you know how on the the aiming video you can be blind for a few seconds....yeah i thought about a move that can effect enemy players and change there screen around and make their allies look like their enemies or some monsters, and make there enemies turn invisible to them or just look like there allies and that move will make it possible for the enemy to hurt there allies which i dont think they can normally do

    that would be a pretty cool move
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah I'm sure something like that will be used for "fear."
  4. THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!!

    THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!! Cupcake-About-Town

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    theal be all like
    player: wered you guys go..... oh wait some ugly monsters.....hack slash...decapitate slash......(dead)

    player gets call from friends........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It'd have to be something that changes your direction and possible teleports you a short distance as well to disorient the player. I don't think anyone is going to straight up say to themselves, "My friends have turned into monsters, so they must be bad now."

    On the other hand illusions would be really fun to play with!
  6. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I associate thouse as magic users. Mage is just a name, and the name describes the different classes backgrounda and sources. Can't a Mage, Warrior class be supporter?
  7. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Maybe "Caster" would be a better archetype name? And "Fighter" instead of "Warrior"? Anything else can be a culmination of Rogue, Caster, and Fighter.

    I.E. Paladin would be a combination of Caster and Fighter. Ranger would be something between a Warrior and a Rogue.
  8. THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!!

    THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!! Cupcake-About-Town

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    i just love messing with people heheheheheheh!!!!!!!!

    illusions - theal get you what you want
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I know stalker has something where they leave behind a copy when they go invis or something, I forget exactly what it is, but it's a milestone in CBT3.
  10. CaRaDaGaiTa

    CaRaDaGaiTa Cupcake-About-Town

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    Huuum, by the way i will only know what i'll play in the launch day. But remember, i was Paladin, if i don't get my true hybrid thing, i will go to the Warrior side (I love big weapons) but if Stalkers can be played as a exposive, mine thrower fighter without relying on stealth, this is very good too.

    Thanks for the advice ;)
  11. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    No problem, remember, stalkers can be tanks as well. I don't think any of the classes are going to be a "true" archetype, they all have some sort of twist. Except perhaps warrior, it seems pretty close to warriors in other games.
  12. THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!!

    THIS AURINS ON FIRE!!!!!! Cupcake-About-Town

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    heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey blindsear hahahaha
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Oh hi.
  14. Symphus

    Symphus New Cupcake

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    I would like to say six, eight would be best though. Every MMO goes through this, how much is too little and how much is too much? What's nice about MMO's is you can always add when something is lacking, balancing always come into play but still.
  15. Grimnar40k

    Grimnar40k Cupcake-About-Town

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    no healer?

    I think more like Melee / Heal / Range.

    Going back to D&D roots this would be Warrior / Cleric / Thief / Ranger / Mage? I'm no expert but this would be a good start.
  16. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    A healer gives support through magic; a Mage can be a healer. As Blind stated, calling them Fighter, Rogue, Caster/Magic-User won't confuse it with the class-design from WoW.

    D&D started out with Fighter, Cleric, Magic-User (where Cleric used magic for support and Magic-User for offence), Thief was the first new class which offered a cunning version of the fighter and Ranger was a sub-class to Fighter.


    To clerify the whole '3 base-classes': you can create a new Mage class that draws their power from nature or the devine instead of arcane and you have created a Druid/Shaman or Priest, or a class that as influenced by the warrior and mage to create a Paladin or Dark-knight. Like the RGB can create 15+ million colors by mixing Red, Green and Blue, can you create many classes by mixing "Warriors", "Rogue" and "Mage". When you break all classes down as much as possible you will be left with: "bruit force fighter", "stealthy/cunning fighter" and "magic user".
  17. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    When you look at Vanilla's actual playable specs on launch, it was quite small with the about of redundant specs. If Carbine do make all the specs work then it will be okay I think.
  18. Scoriae

    Scoriae Cupcake

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    If you ask me, MMO's should have at LEAST 10 classes. Preferably more. :)
  19. The Big Q

    The Big Q Cupcake

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    True to form, this is going to be another of my walls of text. Wildings be warned.

    Assuming you are going to use a class based model you only need 3 classes for any given RPG game. Said classes being the aforementioned Fighter/Rouge/Caster. These three are enough to complete the trinity in its most basic form. The reason the trinity is so critical is that it essentially sets the minimum requirements for a robust highly functional group. A party that fulfills the trinity can, in theory, handle any threat thrown at it so long as two conditions are met.

    One: Assuming the players in the party are infinitely good, in other words the players are or sufficient skill to comprehend the underlying mechanics and devise an appropriate counterstrategy.

    Two: The numbers involved in a challenge are such that player success is not statistically improbable;

    For example, the amount of damage that the players need to do in order to kill the boss is a number within reason. If a dragon has 10,000 hp and the average player attack only hits for 3 damage, then the players need to land 3,300-ish attacks to slay the dragon. Since this is a 3 player party each player needs to land roughly 1000 attacks. On a table top that's a completely unreasonable number. But in the setting of an MMO this works out to a roughly 20 minute fight. Now let's say the each player has about 1,000 hp and the dragon does on average 2 dps to one player at a time. It takes the boss about 8 minutes to kill a player. From a strictly numerical stand point this fight is impossible. If damage is perfectly linear and everybody always hits, the dragon always kills the players. But it only has about 1,500 hp left. Now this is where player skill and damage mitigation come into play. If the players can avoid just over 10% of the bosses damage or otherwise mitigate it (ie. heals or absorbs) then they win the fight. But if the boss has 20,000 instead of 10,000 the fight becomes impossible with any reasonable amount of mitigation or buffs ​

    Of course these numbers have no context and haven't taken into account the various roles that characters fill but it they do a good job of demonstrating the necessity of having feasible numbers involved in a fight. After all RPGs are really just highly sophisticated number crunchers disguised as virtual worlds.

    Now let's look at the different class arch-types

    Fighter: Essentially the brute force fighter, is almost always in front of the party. Typically wears heavy armor and has a big weapon or a shield and because of this he takes less damage when hit. Almost always fights in melee, but this isn't true in all cases. Either has access to some ranged abilities or uses a big gun that gives him some range. When looked at from the Trinity he tends to fill the role of Tank.

    Rouge: The clever one that uses precision and agility to take down foes. Can be either a melee or ranged class. If in melee typically uses one handed swords or daggers to fight and often dual wields. On the other hand he can be a ranged combatant that utilizes either thrown weapons or things like guns or bows. Usually tries to avoid damage rather than just shrug it off. Either by staying out of range or just dodging everything that comes his way. Typically takes the Trinity role of DPS.

    Caster: The magic user. Can draw his magic from many different sources, but they all tend to do similar things. Typically the most versatile party member. He can use his magic to manipulate enemies, simply obliterate them, or support his allies. Takes the Trinity role of Healer/Support.

    With these three classes and the trinity filled, the above fight vs a dragon becomes much easier. The fighter takes most of the damage and the caster heals him, essentially negating the dragon's attempts to kill the players. The rouge spends his time attacking the dragon while it's busy with the fighter, which allows him to do very high amounts of damage. This sets up the classic Tank'n'spank. From here pretty much every boss fight is just a variation that arises from adding more mechanics that mix things up. Forcing player movement, interrupting the boss to prevent huge amounts of damage, or adding things that give the players extra damage. These are all just ways to make the fight more interesting.

    The problem with this three class set up is that it very easily becomes boring. If there isn't enough variety within each class then players feel like they are playing clones of each other, and fights become formulaic. Now it's possible the add depth to each class, giving the variety and complexity that keeps players engaged. But it's much easier to simply add more classes, and almost always more fun.

    These additional classes come from combinations or mutations of the three basics. Paladins are fighter-casters, shamans are rouge-casters with some fighter thrown in, warlocks are just a strange type of caster. The possible combinations are vast. But only so many are actually good or distinct. Hence the limit on the number of classes that can be put in without everything feeling the same. Which raises the question. What is the optimal number of classes?

    The answer really depends on how much variation there is within a given class. And how exactly the game mechanics function. In something like DnD it's okay to have 20+ classes. The game is heavily invested in role play, so it helps to have minor variations that differ mostly in where they get their powers. And as there usually aren't more then 6 players at any given time, it doesn't matter if some the classes overlap. You probably won't see both classes side by side anyways.

    But in an MMO like W* you are going to see all of the classes played and groups get up to 40 people. Because of this you want each class to feel distinct, other wise things are going to feel redundant. "What's the difference between a priest and a cleric again?" That having been said you still need some variability within each class so that everything isn't cookie cutter. But, you don't want to take this too far or nobody has a "job" that they do. (Hello guild wars 2). Because of these things I'd say for an MMO the optimal number of classes is at least 6 but no more than 12. Below six it's hard to have enough variety for everyone without letting every class do everything. And above twelve it's hard to have meaningful differences between each class.

    I'd carbine is doing well to start off with only six classes. It makes things easier to balance. Helps alleviate the problem of everybody wanting the same loot. Allows for classes to be distinct, but still have some flexibility (everyone gets two roles they can fill). And leaves room for expansion later down the road.

    tldr; In theory you can get away with three. For a game like W* I think six is bare minimum, and this way they have room to expand later.

    Sorry for stretching the page out. My mind likes to wander through the details.

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