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So, with this C.R.E.D.D system?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Gunghoe, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Which thread are you referring too? I already browsed the modding and crafting change thread, and didn't see anything, though I skimmed most of it.

    Crafting mats are infinitely available, so there is an infinite supply of items. These items might be hard to make, but that has no bearing on anything except potential cost. There is still potentially an endless supply.

    I am not saying it is P2W. I am saying that the potential exists for it to become that, and although they said it won't be P2W, they also said they want crafting to be significant. However, in this case significant crafting is flirting with P2W.

    At this point, I am hoping crafting talk is hype, and it is on par with WoW.

    That sounds perfectly reasonable, but what is a rare crafted end game item? How do you get the mats for such an item, and what makes it rare?

    Players have been buying gold in WoW forever. Yet, it hasn't became P2W. This is a great idea for them to limit gold sellers and to make some extra money too boot. However, if carbine allows lots of raid quality loot to be sold via the AH, then it is just for the sake of making a quick buck.
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  2. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't believe that italicized bit is necessary to the definition. P2W involves being able to pay cash money for tangible ingame benefits. It doesn't matter whether you can earn those same benefits through game activities or not, if paying cash money is a valid alternative then that is, to some degree, a P2W system, because it gives the cash crowd a tangible advantage over the play crowd.

    Yes, but over time availability shouldn't be an issue for most items. There are currently few, if any items on the GW2 trading post that are in quantities of less than double digits.

    In a roundabout sense, but it does mean that the average player is priced out of the market. What will happen is that Player A will buy CREDD, expecting a good return on his investment, let's say 100 gold. Player B will want to play, but not for $19, and not for $15, but maybe for $5, so he buys gold from a gold farmer who is selling 100 gold for $5, and then buys CREDD using that. Now, yes, Carbine made their $19 off the deal, and Player A made his gold, and B got his free month, but player C, who just wants to play the game and not pay gold farmers is unlikely to be able to earn enough to afford 100 gold per month (and if he could, then the price would likely be set higher than that).

    It's basically an economic cycle in which the average player almost inevitably cannot benefit.
  3. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    I shouldn't say rare. I meant that end game crafted items should not feel to many slots, maybe one or two only or better yet just some chip slots.

    In WoW I could buy SoulBlade for gold which was early raid sword (pre pandas). There were higher lvl items but still it's not like SoulBlade was very easy to get so I wouldn't like even this quality item to be obtainable with gold.
    My preferred option is to let only crafted items which are pink+ obtainable by gold. Blues- can be bought for money as well as all quality consumables (even raid ones).
  4. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Forgive me, for I haven't been keeping up with things as of late.
    But bonusstage was saying that the devs stated crafting would be more viable than WoW.
    WoW allows crafters to make raid quality items from time to time, but its usually only for a 1-3 slots at a time, and often takes raid materials.

    More viable = More slots and/or Easier to make.
  5. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Im more worried about the possibility of Microtransactions

    MICROTRANSACTIONS

    Will you offer microtransaction purchases?
    • We’re interested in microtransactions, but only if we can offer it in a way that fits with the vision of WildStar. We’re approaching this topic very carefully and will share details as they come available.
  6. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    As long as they sell furniture and other cosmetic stuff, I couldn't care less.

    "Lastly, we talked about the dreaded microtransaction, and if WildStar would opt to also have a cash shop. In short? It won’t, at least not yet. They don’t want to close that door completely, but for now the only thing extra you can buy will be CREDD. If they add other MTX options, it’ll only be stuff that won’t screw their customers over. Cosmetic items, convenience things, and so forth."
  7. binzer

    binzer Cupcake

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    I agree that crafting is the main overall (potential) problem, but overall, I think this payment model is great. It seems like Wildstar will force you to properly earn the best items in the game, and just like in WoW, I'm sure most people who buy gold with real money will use it for vanity items. It always made a negligible difference to the game, and I think it's nice that someone with a family and long work hours can still buy a decent mount or whatever. I just hope the Wildstar AH isn't like the Rift store (where you can buy every single mount in the game!).

    I used to think that "F2P" and all the other new business models were great, but after playing them all, I've definitely decided that I prefer subscriptions, even if I don't play a lot every month. Small transactions here and there make it feel like I'm being nickled and dimed for little things, but $15 a month for endless content just seems fair. I'd spend more than that to go to the movies, and that's only for a couple hours of entertainment. I'm one of those people that can't play as much now that I'm older, but rather than being bitter about paying a subscription fee, I actually like that it's so hassle free and I can just log on and play without having to deal with a store, and have access to all the content.

    Also, it seems odd that the people who don't subscribe should complain about the people who buy CREDD with real money and sell it for gold, because those "well off" players are basically sponsoring people so they can play for free. Keeping the system balanced will require a delicate hand, but I'm sure Carbine will monitor it very carefully. No matter what payment system is used, customer satisfaction is key to long-term success, and I'm sure our happiness with the system is very high priority. It's just unfortunate that no model will ever make everyone happy.

    Personally, I want Carbine to make as much money as possible so they can continue making the best game possible (besides that, a lot of salaries in the gaming industry are way too low!). Since they've been developing for 8 years, I can't even imagine how long it'll take before we're even technically even funding new content :S

    For me, the content just has to be good enough that it feels worth the cost, and from what I've seen so far, $15/mo is a bargain (and if I didn't have the cash, I'd happily farm!). Whenever I watch a game demo and see the quality of the animations (no other mmo comes close imo) I pretty much just want to throw money at the screen. I'm not saying that Carbine should try to squeeze every cent out of us, but I do think this model is extremely fair, and I personally think it's a lot better than anything else we've seen.
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  8. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ohoni, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree here. The italicized portion is absolutely the most important. Pay to Win is the implication that the player is buying something that other players cannot, at a time that other players cannot access it. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, the gear isn't "pooped out by the server." Someone has to raid for the item or the materials to craft it before it becomes available as a commodity, limiting its availability. If everyone has the same potential access to the item, but not the gold to purchase it, it is not Pay To Win but instead Pay For Convenience. The CREDD buyer who has those gold to purchase the item, received it from another player who did have the resources, but chose not to buy the items and instead purchased game time.

    While you're absolutely correct that there may be a player type who has neither the time to raid or the money to purchase CREDD, I feel these people are a very small minority of the community. The vast majority of players will be subscribers who occasionally buy CREDD to augment their spending, with a minority of players of later in the revenue cycle of the game, use their gold to lessen their own monthly payments.

    In the end, no one will be able to log onto the Wild Star website and purchase a set of high end gear, or damage buffs, or survivability tools. There will be no one in PvP drastically better because of his gear that he bought with gold earned by selling CREDD. The game will not be over-run by CREDD selling high-rollers who play 2hrs a week and are somehow really good at the game.

    As for time availability, you're again correct, all of the legendary precursors are on the GW2 AH, in double digits. There are multiple reasons for this, the primary being that the GW2 AH is a world wide pool, every server is attached to a single auction house. The second being the age of the game. One year is a long time in game hours and despite some early loses the GW2 is keeping a pretty reasonable player base due to the fact that it has no subscription, allowing players to periodically pick the game up when they're bored and keep adding to the economy. So while you are correct in your statement, my reasoning about item availability in early game still stands.

    In the end there are a lot of unanswered questions about the game, specifically the effect of gear on player effectiveness, that need to be answered before we can even truly engage on the idea of Pay To Win in Wild Star. The combat system looks to be extremely skill dependent, and gear could very well be a distant secondary factor in outcomes in PvP as well as PvE.
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  9. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    All games are like this, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The only time it isn't 100% like this is when the best equipment is BoP, like Wildstar will be. You'll still be able to buy great gear but it won't be like being able to buy your legendary in GW2.
  10. Vexed

    Vexed Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel the system is going to separate the boys from the men in terms of progression.

    The people that work towards getting their free month of game play will progress significantly slower due to not having the gold to work towards new items, raid consumables, cool mounts, upgrading their houses and other things.

    Is this bad? Certainly not, it's how the treadmill will and should work. Anyone that doesn't want to dump money into the game should be at a disadvantage. It also means that the bottom feeders of the community won't be able to get a free ride from the big whales in the community that dump more than the average amount into the game. This time round, the whales get something in return and the free riders have to work to play the game for free. I mean if you really want to play the game to it's full potential, you'll sub anyway. Only time I'll buy C.R.E.D.D is when I have a huge pile of gold that I know I won't be able to get rid of.

    Carbine are aiming for a dedicated player base, they know full well their numbers aren't going to explode to begin. This game is truly special in the sense the game is releasing with a lot of meat at end game. I chuckle when I see players say, just another WoW clone blahblah gonna flop WoW was so much better at release. Well, ye duh? But guess what, the same guys that made WoW successful in the first place are working on this game as well. Of all people to know how to not shoot themselves in the foot, it's these guys.

    In the words of J.G, "If you don't like it, there are plenty of other games on the market to suit you."
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  11. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is not P2W. He is right! If you can get gear on par or better than the average player for cash, then the game is P2W. There is no ifs ands or buts about that. It doesn't have to be best in slot gear.

    Worst case scenario is raid progression is greatly determined by your guilds checkbook.

    So the men have more expendable cash? I didn't realize that was the definition of a man.

    In the worst case scenario progression raiding will be determined by your guilds checkbook.
    What are whales? Is that like the vegas term for millionaires who dump small fortunes into the casino? It almost sounds like you want straight up hardcore p2w...

    What you are saying reminds of the Simpsons movie.
    Mr Burns: "Well, for once, the rich white man is in control."
  12. Reaper1122

    Reaper1122 New Cupcake

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    This system exists not because it will help the game play experience it is solely setup knowing people will dump money into cards then sell them giving the company extra money not caring about how it effects the game.

    Basically it's going to end up being, all non bound loot that can be listed on auction house has a p2convience/win(If you consider easy access that others may need to spend days on to get p2w) aspect attached to it. If your a high end raiding guild and consumables are to expensive and requested for everyone, that's now a way you can negate any money grind for these and or stockpile tons if you will dish out tons of cash.

    The only thing this doesn't effect most likely is end game gear but you can possibly still buy stat chips for your stuff so that may not even be true.
  13. Vexed

    Vexed Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, essentially what I meant was the men are going to be more progressed due to happily paying their sub fee and not worrying about dumping their gold into C.R.E.D.D. If you want to be up there with those guys, pay a sub. It's an incentive and people will struggle to keep up if their main goal is to play the game for free. One that I welcome with open arms.

    $15 is nothing. Just going to re-iterate what a large portion of people have been saying. If you can't afford $15 a month then you should re-evaluate your current situation in life. I have no problems with cutting the F2P players out of the game. The majority of them wouldn't even chip in a cent.
  14. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why would they be behind in progression though? Even Hardcore raiders only spend maybe 15 hours a week in raids. That is plenty of time left to farm gold if they so choose.

    The only way that really makes sense is if you are taking the gold you earned and spending that on epic items instead of a monthly subs.
    That is p2w!
  15. Warslyfe

    Warslyfe Cupcake

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    I always thought P2W was a term derived from F2P games that limited the guy playing for free. Usually doing this through some sort of superior gear/buff/abilitiy that could only be obtained by using real money...

    Now you're telling me it means if you're able to buy AH gear with real money as well. So basically every game is some form of P2W either legitimately like GW2 or illegally in any game that has gold sellers.

    Good to know...
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  16. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    I really get the impression that most people in this thread don't really understand CREDD.

    It's essentially give you a system for paying someone else's subscription for them. You pay their sub, they compensate you with in-game gold. Only difference is that this is now represented by an in-game item that can be traded on the AH, so you wont necessarily know who's sub you just paid for.

    This alone will force CREDD to remain affordable: If nobody is willing to pay that much gold for a month's subscription, then nobody will buy it from you. CREDD will only be as expensive as player-driven demand allows it to be.

    Also keep in mind that gold farmers would not benefit from extremely high CREDD prices. They would have little incentive to use CREDD to sub their accounts, as spending the gold on CREDD instead of selling it would directly eat into their margins. Likewise, they would have no incentive to sell any as they'd need to spend real money to acquire them... Which would be counter-productive.

    Long story short, CREDD is a system where it's in everyone's best interest if it remains affordable.
  17. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    People need to stop thinking that a game is 100% P2W or 0% P2W.
    There is a huge gray area in between.

    If you can buy better than average gear from the AH with real money, then the game is very highly P2W.
    Buying xp buffs in a F2P game is also P2W, but very slight.
    In some games you can buy gold via cash shops, but they don't condone that, so you can't label the game P2W. It isn't their intent. In WoW there are only 1-3 slots of items and they are only good for a very short duration.
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  18. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's pay to win for the person who pays, whether or not it's possible to win without paying.

    I play GW2 a couple of hours per day and have eight level 80s. I am still WAY behind the curve of the wealthiest players because I neither grind the best gold paths, nor play the stock market, and have no interest in doing either. If I had to earn $20 in gems each month to continue playing, I have little doubt that I would either be incapable of doing so using my current gameplay style, or at the very least I would be very gold-poor from doing so.

    I want to play games to have fun, not to "earn my keep."

    Of course not. They'll have to log on to the Wildstar website, but some CREDD, sell that cred in the ingame market, and then buy a set of high end gear, or damage buffs, or survivability tools. It's just a minor added level of hassle.

    I'm genuinely curious as to whether this oft-repeated sentiment has EVER, in the history of the world, actually swayed anyone's position on the matter. I mean, people who was fine with a $15 monthly fee are fine with it, and those that aren't, aren't, but I have difficulty believing that anyone has ever actually read a statement like that and gone "oh, I hadn't thought of it like that. . ."
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  19. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    They key difference is that you are paying another player to win. You pay their sub for them, you get some gold for your troubles.

    Sounds like another way of saying that you don't want to spend your own time in order to progress, and that you don't want to pay other players to give you their progression.

    So you just want free loot for no investment of any kind?
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  20. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    FairyTailisBack, it appears that we have a disconnect in our definition of "Pay to Win." From my perspective, paying to win requires that Carbine themselves, provide you with a distinct item or items through a cash shop or in game vendor which provide an unfair advantage in a competitive scenario.

    Currently, access to gold only provides you with a resource to potentially access an item which is of equivalent power to those accessed from a raid environment. If the items in question are not available to the community at large, having more gold than another player does absolutely nothing for this hypothetical, CREDD enriched player. There is no access to gear that is BETTER than what is available to the average player, and no way to get that gear sooner than another player.

    If Carbine were to install an NPC that sold raid level gear for gold at exorbitant prices that average players would not be able to afford, but that players which sold CREDD could, then there would be a Pay to Win scenario to talk of. As it stands, the heavily limited access to top level gear in the early portion of the game will keep "rich" players from gaining any real power over other players.

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