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So, with this C.R.E.D.D system?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Gunghoe, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

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    If its P2W then its at the same level of P2W as every other mmo with chinese gold farmers. Seriously.

    In a roundabout sense, but it does mean that the average player is priced out of the market. What will happen is that Player A will buy CREDD, expecting a good return on his investment, let's say 100 gold. Player B will want to play, but not for $19, and not for $15, but maybe for $5, so he buys gold from a gold farmer who is selling 100 gold for $5, and then buys CREDD using that. Now, yes, Carbine made their $19 off the deal, and Player A made his gold, and B got his free month, but player C, who just wants to play the game and not pay gold farmers is unlikely to be able to earn enough to afford 100 gold per month (and if he could, then the price would likely be set higher than that).

    It's basically an economic cycle in which the average player almost inevitably cannot benefit.

    Say what? So, why won't everyone do this to pay only 5$ a month in subscription instead of 15 to Carbine!!? And why are prices going to be different on chinese gold sites and for CREDD?? What amazes me is you thought out a whole example for it and still don't see the gaping massive hole in it.
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  2. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    If some conveniences (ex: legendary items) cost you ten months of gameplay then sorry but it is to big of a convenience to buy even if buying it cost you 150$. There must be a limit on how good items/gear you can buy and it should be quite strict (blue- gear). The items you should be able to buy should (imo) be only those which you would have to grind for otherwise, ie raid consumables. Other than that, craftable items need to be sellable as there is no other choice but there should not be many end game quality craftable items.
  3. Bigal007

    Bigal007 Cupcake

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    Lets not over complicate the matter, if you buy gold its pay to win, in this game you most definately can buy gold, it really is that simple.
    The reason they have made the mistake of including the crudd system is to appease the people like myself who wont be subbing, its a very poor attempt at appeasement but thats what it is.
    It wont work and neither will a new subscription MMO in this market, there are far too many other decent games out there to play, and thats another thing, we dont even know whether this is a decent game yet, if it stinks then you can forget all this talk as it will became f2p anyway, killing off the crudd system. It will have to be utterley awesome to remain profitable while charging a sub.
  4. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    If there is some item I need to grind 20h for and that item can be bought for gold I kind of consider it P2W. That number of hours could be disputed here. But imagine that there are let's say 6 equipable elements like this for your character (gear/chips, etc). So you have to grind 120h for something somebody else can just buy. For me it is too much time but this number should be based on some test results not my feelings.

    I think this summarize my feeling well :)
  5. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    What does it matter if there is a cash shop involved or not matter?

    Cash > Cash shop > Epic item
    Cash > Credd > gold > AH > Epic item

    The end result is the exact same.
    Gear for cash money is the definition of P2W.
    How good that gear is, and how easy it is to acquire determines how bad the game is suffering from P2W.
  6. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    You are correct but let's forget about CREDD and concentrate on gold sellers outside CREDD. What's important is what quality items we can buy for gold. I don't care about CREED, P2P or anything else beside game becoming close to P2W.
  7. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    Like my SoulBlade which I wanted to have two :(
  8. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

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    It won't work like EVE, but I am curious why people think raiders will make money? Has there been info released about a big raid items for sale thing? I ask because my initial assumption was this will benefit hardcore solo players that tend to get into the crafting and econ game, and raiders can pay extra since they are usually poor. At least this was the dynamic back in wow and eq. If solo doesn't make more money there would be little point to it, that has always been the dynamic in theme park mmo's - raiders get the best items and provide consumers of the mats soloers gather.

    Back in the day, it was the raid heavy servers that had the most inflated prices due to (presumably) chinese gold purchases. In my own case, I was poor as a hardcore raider in TBC, but very rich in LK and cata when I played the gold making game solo.
  9. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ohoni, I'm going to grossly over simplify how I read your last post, and I mean no disrespect, I'm just trying to understand your perspective.

    "It's pay to win for the person who pays, whether or not it's possible to win without paying."

    So you mean winning isn't the issue, just how you win is the issue?

    I see your point, in that a person who pays for convenience and resources, is in fact paying for the potential opportunity to be on equal footing with another player who has put time into the game. But I fail to see how, when the items which will facilitate this equal footing will not be guaranteed to be available, this is paying to win. It's more of a "Paying for the opportunity to maybe buy an item, which may or may not be available any time soon, that will put me on equal footing with another player who has more time resources than I do." Which in my perspective it is no different than someone in WoW or GW2 accruing a butt-load of gold through the AH and buying all of gear to raid or do fractals.

    Its been going on for years in other games, and I don't see how this will be any different as Carbine is not increasing the availability of these items to make them more available for those who participate in the CREDD market.
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, that doesn't really have anything to do with what I said at all.

    Carbine makes every item in the game, crafted, dropped, etc., available at their discretion. If they want to to be BoP, it's BoP. If they want it sellable, it's sellable, if they want it rare, they lower drop rates, if they want it common, they raise them. If they allow players to purchase those items with gold, and allow that gold to be purchased with cash, then there is an element of P2W there.

    From the perspective of the consumer player, how is it any different that an NPC sells the item for more money than he could reasonably afford, than if a player were selling that item for the same price?

    Only if the game company condones gold farmers. If it's an illegal method that can result in bannings then you can't consider it the same thing.
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  11. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    Carbine must make sure that 90% of end game items are BoP items. If they do that there will be little problem. Even smaller than in WoW.
    NN all.

    Edit: Or let's make all items BoP and remove crafting and AH :p
  12. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    It wasn't due to chinese gold purchases. It was basic supply and demand. The early farmers in WoW actually went out and grinded like anyone else. About the time when Dire Maul came around is when hacking got involved, and even still they had to do the instance themselves. I am sure the influx of gold had some influence, but nothing compared to the huge demand.
  13. Borz

    Borz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey, if we're skipping steps why not include this one:
    Cash->Subscription-> Doing content -> Epic item.


    And why the heck everyone thinks buying CREDD means instant money injection, and yet complains that they'll be too expensive to really play freely using them.
  14. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Doing content =/= Guaranteed epic item
    It also requires time, dedication, and effort.

    Nice try though.

    Because this model is copied from other games like Eve Online.
    In Eve it takes a good 40 hours played to earn enough isk for 1 month game time, and that is only if you are very far long into the game. A noob has no chance in hell of pulling it off.
  15. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

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    The link between inflation and gold buying has been established for a long time now, I recall there was a study on the AH price differences between servers depending on the amount of raiders on each. This really wasn't my main point which is that in previous mmo's the relationship between casual and raider was that of supplier and buyer. Its part of the social network of most theme park mmo's, so I was curious why many are talking about raiders making the gold, that would be very different.

    I see it working more like the Black Market AH. People won't necessarily play to get fully free sub time, but eventually they may end up with more gold than they need.

    And btw since P2W is never 0% and 100% could you give an example of an mmo that is less P2W than Wildstars present model?
  16. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    We don't know what items are available for sell, so how could I possibly tell you that?
    The real money market could have almost no influence on the game, or it could completely dominate it.
  17. Grimnar40k

    Grimnar40k Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love the concept of the system that everyone wins. I personally prefer a good ol subscription fee just because I don't even want to have to think about cash shops and all that <REDACTED>. Also, well I've never felt entitled to play a game for free and never expected any developer with a worthwhile product to just give it away for free.(I just don't understand F2P at all) However, there are times when I need something in game but due to RL I just don't quite have the time to commit to grinding away gold for hours or days, so for someone like me I will love the option to legally buy in game gold and additionally support Carbine who hopefully we can all agree is making one seriously badass MMO for us to all enjoy. Also for the sketchy gold famers and sellers... Well "they don't get sh*t" lol love it
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  18. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I really don't think the CREDD system is a good idea. People have always pointed out a lot of potential for abuse and gold sellers. Infesting the game with such individuals will ruin it for many. Eventually yes, long term players will basically be able to play for free as they will have more money that they will ever need.
  19. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

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    So, it all depends on what items can be purchased? Which is the same as any other MMO out there, but better because they actually did not make a cash shop with microtransactions !? I mean given that we only know the real money set up here, and not the in game econ, why would we assume the worst when they didn't make any microtransactions in this day and age? Seems to me a clear signal, but sure, if they made epic / legendary items purchasable I wouldn't be happy, but I can't see why that would be assumed at this point.
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  20. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ooof, a lot of replying to do, and I missed a few peoples posts in the last few minutes and I'll try to respond as best I can.

    To FairyTails:

    It matters immensely if there is an NPC/Carbine selling the item or a player. If an NPC/Carbine provides the item, then their are(usually) an unlimited number available to the player base. When items must be found or crafted, then there is a natural restriction to the number of items at any time that can be purchased, and when they are gone, more must be made or found. This greatly restricts the amount of "Pay to Win" items available at any time. Not everyone with huge amounts of gold will be able to buy the BoE/Crafted items put on the auction house because there will be a limited number of them.

    To Ohoni:

    Again sir, you're correct about Carbine's ability to determine the availability of any items that drop, but that doesn't address the fact that it isn't in Carbines best interest to make Pay To Win a viable strategy. I feel safe saying that the majority of players will be subscription based, and will not buy CREDDS. Its more investment than anyone wants to get into or an MMO in most cases. BoE's and craft-able high end gear won't be a CREDDs only market. In all likelihood, Carbine will ensure that craft-able gear floods the market, ensuring that most players will be able, if they so wish, do early raid content and earn better gear.

    The fact is, mounts and housing is where the majority of CREDDs derived gold will end up. Which in turn will incentivize other players to sell CREDDs so that they too can afford these mounts and housing as quickly as possible.

    /edit: edited for missing words.

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