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Stalker Stealth

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Unseen, Apr 13, 2013.

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Will Stalker have unlimited stealth later on?

  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Personally I'm not a fan of perma stealth because it's difficult to balance correctly.
    If you balance according to the first strike capabilities then the class becomes sub-par in sustained fights (and inferior to non stealth dps).
    If you balance them for out of stealth fights then they become unbalanced in PvP due to the first strike capability.
    Stealth also allows bypassing/faster farming of PvE content in many cases (hence why my farming alts are usually stealth capable classes). Balancing around that capability can influence either of the above (or not balancing again gives them an advantage).

    Certainly giving a stealth class high damage + cc in combination with first strike isn't a great idea (in my view at least).

    I'd probably go along the lines of making the stealth ability a slotted skill, either via the LAS or a 'suit slot' or something if interfering with the LAS is not an option.
    Stalkers could then slot stealth if they wanted it or they could slot damage boost or a defensive boost. That way they could choose their role and be balanced around the choices they made.
    If they choose stealth they couldn't slot the offense or defence boost so they lose power/survivablity but gain all the benefits of stealth.
    If they wanted to have similar damage to other dps then they would slot offense and lose stealth.
    If they wanted to tank they would slot defence, giving up stealth and gaining survivability/threat generation.

    There's no need to alter existing skills as the balancing is done via the 'suit slot' so the partial stealth skills for combat are still useful by virtue of additional damage (offense slotted) or allowing control/threat/defensive bonuses (defense slotted) to offset not being used as an opener.

    That's how I'd approach it but maybe that's just me :coffee:
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  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I think stealth being permanent is perfectly reasonable. It's the stun locking WoW gave to rogue classes that made people feel they were cheap.

    But perma-stealth is in numerous games for various classes and it can be balanced well and be quite fun for the player and even for those they go up against. Every single time I play a perma-stealth class I have AMAZING fun. Every single time I defeat a perma-stealth class in a MMO I feel skilled and powerful. That seems like a pretty balanced feeling to me.
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  3. Dean Fry

    Dean Fry Cupcake

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    Stealth should be permanent, it is so much fun and its very unique to the class. What made Rogues in WoW so powerful was that they had 3 different CC skills on seperate diminishing returns and pair that with stealth allowed the Rogue to control any fight from start to finish and if they messed up they could always use a cooldown to go back into stealth and walk away.

    Stealth isn't the issue but the amount of control the Stalker will have and if each of those control skills will be on seperate diminishing returns or not, Stalker will need some CC but if they have too much then they will be like Rogues in WoW.
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  4. Brimdang

    Brimdang Cupcake

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    I kind of hope for unlimited stealth, stalking (the class is called 'stalker') people was half the fun back in wow. I don't think stalkers will have as many tools to control the fight as rogues in wow given the limited action bars.
  5. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    True, from what we've seen in the vids by now, stalkers don't have lots of stuns and cc. They have 1 stun and so do warriors and some attacks that do more damage from behind. They really don't look as ridiculous as WoW's rogues.
  6. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    I always did just fine with the Invis Watch in Team Fortress 2, which was limited in duration. It adds a fun strategic element to your hunt!. CLOAK AND DAGGER IS FOR BABIES
  7. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Warriors will have more than a single stun, but I believe that'll be true for each class. What I worry about, when a class is given unlimited stealth, is how that combines with their CC and how great their alpha strikes are if they're given any.
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  8. shadowclasper

    shadowclasper Cupcake-About-Town

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    Unless it's balanced right. The idea behind unlimited stealth is that you stealth OUT of view of the opponent, then get behind them and stabbinate. You move slowly, and if they are aware of you or have backup, then you're supposed to be doomed before you can finish your stabbination.

    WoW made it too easy to get back into stealth from combat, and made it so it was nearly impossible to kill the guy before he was stabbinating even if you were in a group with them watching your back.
  9. Blankspace

    Blankspace WTB Fun Forum Title

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    Balance is important.

    Stealth mechanics aren't what people seem to be having an issue with... it is either the damage they do while keeping you locked down.

    Perma Stealth isn't difficult to balance. Guy opens up on you, make sure he can't get back in stealth. (With a bleed/dot spell) Or counter him when he goes into stealth. (AoE damage for example). Or turn the table. (You stun/lock him down, make room, and blow him up).

    Balance is precarious but necessary in all aspects of combat systems and how they relate to each other.
  10. Classix

    Classix Cupcake

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    Stealth is still viable for ambushes with a proper time limit. It adds more strategy and tactics to when you stealth up and keeping it off cool down. Timing will be vital in those cases with the whole knowing when to commit or flee. Maybe its not as fun as crossing a map invis or camping to ambush at a flag but it does add a vaster skill requirement vs other stealth classes. As a fellow Stealther I approve of a time limit.

    Though I think also the ability to stealth during combat may very well be vital to its class and play style. We Stealthers are generally built to deal damage not take it. Warriors have a hefty bit of armor to soak damage, Archers, Mages and Healer use evading and movement and entrapping skills to keep the distance from the melee or soaking skills (Damn bubbles). Stealther's disappear and use gurellia tactics, hit and runs, as well as keeping pressure on the ranged/casters. I have not seen or experienced the game play myself but this is based on past experience as a ranger, scout, thief on other games with limited stealth times.
  11. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Also remember limited action sets are always going to change things up drastically in this regard. Stalkers will have to pick and choose their powers here, and won't have access to everything under the sun all at once. It actually has the potential if done right to make encounters more varied and keep people guessing.
  12. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I want to say Moneda posted it earlier, that Stalkers were going to get a partial stealth ability during combat, doesn't stealth them but allows them to use their stealth abilities. This leads me to believe that stealth may become a short stealth, 1-1.5 minute stealth, maybe with a "talent" to make it longer for dps stalkers. But with the telegraph system I think it wouldn't balance right to have a perma-stealth. Stalker could just stay stealthed and view all the telegraphs for AOE and just walk around.
  13. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    How do you figure that matters? The entire point of the telegraph system is to avoid the incoming attacks if you are quick and have good response time. Also every video I've seen when someone goes into stealth they move pretty darn slow.

    But regardless, even if there is a milestone that boosts stealth speed, avoiding incoming damage while stealthed just means you can be rewarded for playing well and using the excellent telegraph system in a smart way. Nothing wrong or unbalanced about that in my eyes.

    Furthermore, they could give other classes "see through stealth" abilities and buffs, making the choices for a PvP action set even more interesting. I see nothing but good things with perma stealth!
  14. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    If the stalker is stealthed they wouldn't particularly need those 2 qualities, since any good stealth player wouldn't travel around within AOE range of a teammate. Also, I don't know about you, but when I pvp I don't just arbitrarily...I think that's the right spelling...throw AOE spells around just to check if there is a stealth around me. There just doesn't seem like there would be any skill in perma-stealthing around all the telegraphs, ganking one person, re-stealth rinse and repeat.

    I will grant that stealth classes need to have big burst coming out of stealth because they should be squishy out of stealth. They are supposed to be gankers/assassins but with the second spec being a tank, I think they will have some base avoid/defensive abilities or passives. Thus making them less squishy, Sins(and thei repub counters) weren't squishy at all out of stealth and they were dps/tank.
  15. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    It depends on how fast you can move in stealth vs how fast telegraphs are. Mob telegraphs work very differently from player telegraphs in that player telegraphs happen pretty instantaneously.

    I still don't understand though how a perma stealth ability is at all unbalanced by the telegraph system. Being able to sneak up behind someone and avoid the AoEs to do this would work in fairly much the same way, it would just be telegraphed to the stealther better at times, which is only a good thing because it makes such an encounter more interesting as it won't be based so much on luck.

    But AoEs in other games telegraph where they are hitting already anyway and stealthers have learned to avoid such things already since MMO PvP began.
  16. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    If they keep the movement speed where it currently looks like they slow down significantly, then sure perma stealth would be fine. Because it would take some good set up time to gank someone. If they changed it to near un-stealthed movement speed, that would not be fun to play against.

    The first would mean that while you could roam the map stealthed and try to gank, although the rest of the enemies would be moving faster than you, thus requiring:

    1: you work with your team and set up choke points or isolate an enemy healer/ranged
    2: you actually pick your battles wisely and enter combat more discreetly
    3: you pick a gank spot/area that you can traverse and hide easily

    Or, you could run to an area out of stealth, because you move faster then enter stealth and sit and wait/stalk. It would require you to actually move to different areas out of stealth. The problem with WOW and TOR, their perma-stealth classes could move at unstealthed speeds and faster than that at times, thus making it ridiculous to play against.
  17. shadowclasper

    shadowclasper Cupcake-About-Town

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    um... so your entire complaint is based around them changing it to be faster?

    But... they don't show any signs of them doing so... so why bother to worry over it?

    I mean... if we're going to do that, why not worry over whether or not they make espers deal rediculously high damage so that they can one shot anybody they hit? or for Spell Slingers to have an rediculously long range blink so they can just get behind everyone's AoE's before they even have the chance to be hit by them?
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  18. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am not complaining about anything, I merely stated that I think it would be better if Stalkers didn't have perma stealth and then gave my reasoning behind it. Then the conversation went into movement speed and I responded.

    Please explain to me why having a perma-stealth is more beneficial? So you can run around everyone who are using a combat system that is designed to be reactionary?
  19. Arsenic36

    Arsenic36 New Cupcake

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    I am glad they have stealth until they break it. I played a Thief in GW2 and the short stealth is just, meh. But in GW2 it really was SHORT stealth. 3-4 seconds. I sadly am not going with stalker main in this I don't think even though I play them in every game. I am going SpellSlinger.
  20. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just in case you didn't see, from the beta patch notes:

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