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Stalker Tanking, Not Taking Hits So You Don't Have To!

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Bellaby, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    A bit off-topic, but I really like where the dodge mechanic can go for tanks. It's pretty much a given that you won't be able to dodge every attack, or even every telegraph, so tanks will have to make a cost-benefit analysis for each attack: eat the damage and save the dodge for something bigger that might be coming, or dodge and hope you have the Endurance back when the next Super Dragon Punch comes your way.
  2. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    Although I think it’s a great idea to have different tanks and adds variety to the game, I wonder how hard the developers will have to work to make tanking balanced. Will there wind up being a “main tank” or better tank or situational tank? I wonder also if one of the two remaining classes will be another tank type offering more variety to the tanking pool. I would hate to see where no one wants a warrior tank because they need more healing then a stalker tank or a <redacted> tank. I would try out a Stalker tank to see how it is though, I am interested in this type of “cant touch this tank” game play. I bet they will be fun in PvP.
  3. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well they are building the game from the ground up to have different types of tanks so that should make balancing them somewhat easier and they have the advantages of seeing what has worked and what hasn't with many existing games and where those games went wrong. Now I know their have been games that have done that before but they have tend to put extra obsticles in the way (ranged tanks.....).

    The worse scenario is like how Blizzard did WoW back in Vanilla where despite claims that they could tank Druids and Paladins hadn't been designed to be balanced main tanks in the same way Warriors were right off the bat. While things have definatly improved over time they have always carried the burden of trying to balance tanking when the initial system hadn't made a serious attempted to do so. That they didn't take the idea seriously was emphasized by the class raid tier sets for all hybrids except Warriors being healing sets.
    IMO WoW is the perfect example of what happens when you don't build your system from scratch to allow for different types of tanks to perform the role in a balanced manner as they are essentiall always juggling against that initial flawed and shortsighted design.
    SWTOR gimped itself in all kinds of ways to try and provide every class the ability to hybrid role while still trying to make sure they stuck to the thematics of the IP.
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  4. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    Very first avoidance tank:

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  5. spencerBAXLEY

    spencerBAXLEY Cupcake-About-Town

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    My main concern is the impact that avoidance tanking could have in PVP. I definitely don't want unkillable stalkers stealthing around and stabbing me in the face constantly. :p

    To each their own, but I'm not saying that I dislike dynamic combat, simply that it was executed extremely poorly in GW2.
  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    [​IMG]
    Inner Calm: Seems like a nice passive for the Stalker Tanks. But what will be increased? Survivability...well can't that be alot?

    Partial Camouflage: Seems like they can enter some special stealth mode while still being visable, but able to use stealth abilities. Mayby they even get some extra avoidence during that Camouflage mode.

    Also i would've thought these pages were on the wiki as (possible abilities) already. It shows were Carbine is aiming for with each class, and some combo/fighting mechanics.
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  7. Taters

    Taters Cupcake

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    Very valid. Can't have tank builds being able to pump out equivalent damage. I think the limited talent loadout helps alleviate this. Also if the main effect of stacking tech is threat generation, I don't think it will be worth it to try and hit tech milestones for PvP. More likely a lot of stam and whatever resistance stat they may be planning.[/quote]
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  8. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    In regards to the RNG avoidance chance, I WOULD be okay with that IF, and ONLY if, it was tied to an active ability. A poor example comes from WoW, with the Brewmaster Tank. BrM has to use certain abilities in order to proc her passive avoidance. One ability gives you a 30% dodge chance, and another gives you 20% parry and damage reduction. In addition to actively moving out of the way, an active way to proc a %avoidance chance would be imo accepted by most Action RPG fans.

    Right, having a resource used to power both defensive AND offensive abilities could help alleviate this as well. That would require a passive threat buff, but I don't see why they wouldn't have that anyway.

    Inner Calm seems like it COULD be a PvP buff. I say this because a Tank wouldn't be below 35% health for more than maybe a second(whether due to healing bringing health back up, or getting finished off by the boss), so unless it is along the lines of a 80% damage reduction (which is doubtful), it is probably to allow PvP Stalkers to have an edge when their health is brought down. This is further solidified by the fact that this is the Stealth Build, which is, in most games, made for PvP.

    Partial Camouflage seems like, and I hate to use WoW again, the move "Shadow Dance" for rogues, which allowed them to use Stealth exclusive abilities in combat. This ability was also tied into their Stealth build.

    I would have Dodged before the Parry, he needs to work on his rotation.

    I imagine that Tanks in general, even with decent damage, will have next to no "Burst Damage", making them more of a Carry in PvP, rather than an offensive force!
  9. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    How many times I have been under 35% hp at boss fights in raids...pff... all those times you do a boss for the first time and people mess up, letting the Tank + mayby 1 healer and a few dpsers stay alive for the last few % of the boss and still making it because I could burn all my CD's at that point (I'm mostly a tank or a healer in raids).

    And if you get under 35% it doesn't state if you get a buff for a few seconds or if it is gone as soon at you go above 35% hp, if it is a buff for (let's say) 5 seconds, then when it proccs it can just save so much mana/frustration, even if it happens only 1 or 2 times during a boss fight.

    Then there are the situations when someone (the main-tank-healer) Disconnects, sometimes it takes a few seconds to see/know someone got DC'd, then again this buff/passive could be a life saver.

    Or with a boss having an spell that reduces all health of the raid to 1% (in WoW there where bosses with such spells)

    I can go on with a few more examples but I think you get the picture of it being as good for PvE as for PvP.

    It's just your OH <REDACTED> button except it being a passive and not a button :D
    So yes it COULD be a PvP buff but i also see the PvE aspects of it, and hope you see them aswell.

    Also indeed we don't know what build name for the stalker is for tanking, mayby the stealth is going to be it or they name it some kind of ''close combat stalker''.
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  10. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah I can definitely see how it could be used for tanking!

    As for it being a buff with a duration, I very much doubt it! If it stayed up after being brought back up, it would encourage taking damage in order to maintain it (Min/Maxers for sure!), and that seems like a rather risky Gambit, getting that low every 5 seconds would probably give your healer a heart attack! :p
  11. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    This just in from the Reddit AMAA!

    [–]OHNOITSKEN

    Group PvE combat question (I know... I don't really pvp that often but the combat dudes are here so...)
    For a tank, how high on the priority list is keeping aggro in group combat? By this I mean will tanks have to actively create threat on a target or do you believe that keeping threat shouldn't be a particularly hard endeavor which leaves more brain space for other things such as placement/movement, CCs, and interrupts?

    [–]CRB_ClynchCombat Systems Lead

    Yes, tanks will actively have to generate threat, but this is not a particularly hard endeavor due to the reasons you listed. Our combat, and boss fights, tend to require the player to react to things that are occurring in real time. Due to this a majority of the tank’s time/brainpower will be spent on things such as:


    • Movement: The tank and their group mates will need to be available to actively move around during a fight to avoid high damage attacks that could seriously hurt, or kill them.

    • Coordinating CC’s: With systems like Interrupt Armor, most boss creatures will require multiple CC’s to prevent them from casting potentially devastating abilities. This means that interrupting these abilities will need to be a coordinated group activity.

    • Timing Defensive/Survivability Abilities: The tank will have a nice arsenal of abilities that help them increase their survivability. When, where, and how you use these abilities will truly determine their true effectiveness.

      Added to OP as well!
  12. Gravy

    Gravy Cupcake

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    The problem with tanking as any sort of dodge class is when you lack the proper amount of armor and health. You can dodge 20 attacks sure, but as soon as they land one hit, you're probably dead. In any sort of top tier raiding scenario the idea of a low armor value dodge tank is something I wouldn't consider spending time to invest in as the return on investment just isn't high enough. We also have to consider magical damage, which is usually only mitigated via stats on gear.

    As someone who always plays the tank obviously my opinion is biased, but I just don't see this sort of tank working. Sure you can bend those rules where a constant string of dodges results in a victory after the tank dies, but the chance of you dodging enough attacks to actually tank a fight that lasts upwards of 5 minutes is astronomical.

    We also run into the issue of who plays classes like the stalker, it's not people who want to tank, otherwise they would play a tank. I'd also be unwilling to trade in the (assumed) high DPS of the stalker for a tank in their off-set gear, the DPS loss could actually result in a failed fight if the stalker has to focus on spending their time spamming dodge skills and not doing enough damage.
  13. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well first off, the Stalker was listed as being a Tank Class in addition to DPS on the official website, so we can be fairly certain that whatever they have in mind will make us viable tanks! Actually, the whole point of this thread currently is to discuss the very mechanics that you just listed as being issues :)

    And as far as people playing Stalker not wanting to tank, I have to disagree, if from the very least at a personal level! I have always loved medium armor avoidance tanks, in fact they're the only kind I play!
    There's just soething about using grace and agility to avoid damage that really resonates with me, from a Bear Druid in WoW, to A Rogue tank in Rift, to a Warrior in TERA, and then back to WoW for a Monk Brewmaster. Each game/class was given different tricks and abilities to mitigate the hits you DO take, such as a Druid getting an absorb shield when using certain moves, the TERA Warrior's awesome self-healing, or the Monks ability to stagger 50%+ damage into a DoT instead of taking huge hits.

    TL;DR = Rogue tanks have been around since table-top days, and there are plenty of ways to make them viable!

    What ideas do you have that could make it so? :)
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  14. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not sure they will allow you to be a stand still tank. I don't think they would make the effort to set up telegraphs if they could be ignored by a tank with high armor. I bet even warrior tanks will require a lot of dodging.
  15. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    I think you're right, Bellaby, Stalker tanking will probably be primarily through aggro-generation, then outright damage avoidance as opposed to mitigation like the Warrior.

    For all the tanking skills a Stalker may have though, I wonder how they'll do without the taunting skills of a Warrior...unless the Stalker gets some, too. :O
  16. JCwildthing

    JCwildthing Cupcake

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    This is a good point. I doubt the "meat shield" tactic will be as effective in this game.
  17. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    I suspect it may exist but with more use of enemy interrupts than just plain armour.
  18. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    They also mentioned that bosses have CC armor so you need a group attempt to stun them. Though dodging is practically free. Why would you ever take a hit when you could dodge it.
  19. Taters

    Taters Cupcake

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    Energy resource I believe. Can't just dodge non-stop.
  20. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I haven't seen anything that says dodging takes energy? I would find such a system at least a little lame.

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