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Tagging Mobs: First Come First Server, or Does Everyone Get A Piece of the Action?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Zapp Brannigan, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. SoundCaster

    SoundCaster New Cupcake

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    In my opinion I feel that both players should obtain loot, but have it based on who contributed to the combat in how much. It would make more sense for the player who started the combat to gain more loot, but only if they continue to contribute to the full defeat of the mob rather then just pulling and letting it attack you as your friend attacks and tried to finish it off. But in that case the other player defeating the mob would get the full loot window.

    But if both players put out equal amount of effort into defeating the mob, just split the loot 50/50 i say!
  2. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Drastically out leveled!? Your quote here,
    shows that if a level 11 character helps a level 6 with what to the level 11 is a gray MOB, it will drastically reduce the level 6’s XP. A level 11 could have easily been a level 10 minutes earlier and farming those same MOBs. Also note that all the level 11 has to do is hit the MOB once, and the level 6 loses a significant amount of XP. This puts a powerful tool into griefers hands.

    In WoW I have been cussed out because my indecision about jumping in and helping, caused me to jump in to late, allowing a character to die (Note, not caused.). I have also been cussed out because I jumped in and helped a character out. I have no clue if the above mechanic was true or not when I played WoW (A few months after launch.), all I know is what the perception was at the time.


    Is an open tagging system free of problems? Nope; but as been pointed out in this thread neither is a closed tag system. Does an open tagging system promote zerging? Yes; but if the Devs have done a good job with the encounter and grouping mechanics, you can have multiple groups within the encounter. Is an open tagging system inherently bad for grouping? No; not if the Devs have made it easy to group, and beneficial to group. Does a closed tagging system put tools into Griefers hands that make it easier for them to grief? Abso-fricken-lutely.

    I swear you proponents of a closed tag system must always get the MOB you want, when you want, and a griefer is never to be seen. Many of us have not experienced that reality, and I would say that was true for MMO Devs as well, because since EQ they have tried different tagging systems, and they would not have put effort into a non-problem.
  3. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Okay first of all even at level 10 you outlevel a level 6 by a good amount, and a line has to be drawn somewhere. Also situations like this are far likelier to arise during the 97% of your level time when you aren't level 10 or under rather than in those early level you spend maybe what 4 hours in? Now this system was put in place to stop people from powerleveling so easily, could someone in theory go around and nerf your XP for you by finishing off your mobs... yes.

    How many times though has something like this honestly happened to you where someone was so bored they followed around not just any level 6 but you for hours making your life miserable? It's a pretty far fetched scenario.
    That sucks, but honestly this seems like a matter of people not understanding the game mechanics, on either side depending on on the situation. Something like this could be solved with a clearer explanation of the system and doesn't mean it's a bad system, just misunderstood.
    I don't always gets the mob I want, when I want it, but you know what that's okay 99.9% of the time it's a very minor inconvenience at worst. It's far better dealing with the occasional jerk and getting on with life than dealing with the many problems inherent in an open tag system (see GW2 forums or the 35 page topic I linked earlier). Not only that but coming across an occasional jerk does add a sense of realism to the game, that sort of stuff happens in the real world where things aren't perfect either and if they were the world would be pretty sterile and boring.
  4. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm in the boat of needing to have both.

    Open tagging on normal and quest specific monsters allows a more friendly atmosphere when it comes to questing and exploring.

    Closed tagging on rare, unique and world boss monsters allows them, and their loot, to keep their rarity/scarcity.

    I myself personally don't care, it could stick with closed tagging entirely and I'd be fine with it but doing as above allows for the "best of both worlds".
  5. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Outside of quest specific mobs, I am fine with a first hit tagging system. It doesn't prevent progression when on a specific task, which is most painful when an area is crowded. At the same time, it pushes people to spread out for just general grinding on regular mobs and rewards early presence for special or rare mobs.
  6. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. I disagree that "99.9% of the time it's a very minor inconvenience at worst". For me, it's a major inconvenience when it happens, it takes a noticeable chunk of "fun" out of that moment, it creates frustration and anxiety, it makes me doubt and it makes me think about things that I do not want to think about when in a game (for example, things that I already spend 8 hours a day thinking about at work). This is not to say I'm right and you're wrong, but rather to point out that you can't generalize like that. It's a real problem to a significant portion of the population, you can't just wave your hand and say "well that doesn't matter".

    2. Your assumption that "there are many problems inherent in an open tag system and there's no other problem than jerks (which you don't think is a responsibility of the game design) in a closed tag system", simply cannot occur at where it occurred, it's circular logic. That point is what we're arguing about in this thread, you can't use the answer (presumed and untested answer to be more specific) as an argument.

    3. I disagree with your assumption that having the 35 page topic on GW2 forums is a sign of the system's INHERENT problems. Think about the first MMOs in the market, all the threads complaining about mob tagging will add up to perhaps 35 thousand or million pages. You can say "people have gotten used to tagging and hence are not complaining as much about it now", but that's not an INHERENT property of a system. You can then argue that "what people are used to should be considered", which I agree, but again "considered" doesn't mean "adopt right away", you'd need evidence to back up that claim. Else progress in human societies would never had happened.

    4. I disagree with your statement and suggestions that "jerks is the problem and that's not the problem of the game designers". Some games are full of "jerks" and in other games you find a whole lot less of them; some games have a friendly atmosphere while some other games don't; some games reward the "jerks" and encourages "jerkish behaviour" while other games really don't give a jerk much advantage over other players; these are all game design issues --- Closed tag vs Open tag system. In short, yes they're responsible for their jerks.

    5. I disagree that adding in jerks would "make the world more interesting". Because the implications here is appalling: You're saying adding bullies to a school makes it more "interesting" or else it's going to be "boring" for those kids. You're saying having potential criminals living in your neiborhood is "interesting" or else it's going to be "boring". I get what you mean, yes sometimes an occasional jerk here and there can spark a sense of community (which is very different from making life more interesting), but becareful with what you're wishing for and what you're generalizing.

    6. Lastly, I disagree with the notion that "the game world should completely reflect the real world". Then it wouldn't be a game would it? The essence of a piece of art is combining essential aspects (preferably pleasant, but at least memorable or symbolic) of real life with the absence of certain other aspects. And game design, I believe, is a form of art. In a shorter answer, it's a fantasy, we play fantasies for a reason, one of the reason is to get away from some of the real world stuff. Jerks is of course an unpleasant part of everyday life that we have to deal with, and a lot of people would rather not deal with them at all in the game.
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  7. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well, wouldn't that be an actual problem with the system? I mean the "spreading out part". I think in an ideal MMO, we want people to gravitate towards each other, play together, and share the fun. If you have a mechanic that tends to "spread people out" in a social game, then I consider it a flaw... Avoiding people is not something that an MMO should reward...
  8. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I didn't say it didn't matter, is it somewhat less than optimal sure but really I think it's far less of an issue than you make it out to be. If a person is being a verbal jerk, you can hit an ignore key, problem solved. Really the only thing they can do that can't be immediately solved is tagging mobs and I don't feel this is something to get frustrated about or anxious or ruin your day about for a couple reasons. First they generally do it a few times if they are trying to get a rise out of you and move on if you ignore them, I have almost never seen a person bothered like this for long periods of time unless they are feeding the troll. Second you have recourse if it gets to that point in the form or GMs, and you can go hit other mobs or go somewhere else in the interim.

    I don't have to assume any problems with open tag systems, it's factual. Complex formulas of contributions creating loot issues and difficulty balancing normal play with exploits are inherent problems of these systems, I could produce more evidence of this than the GW2 forums but I think you know I'm right on this and are simply arguing the semantics of "INHERENT" based on how much you caps locked that word. As for not thinking jerks are a responsibility of game design I didn't say that. I said that people cussing other people out for helping them is due to their ignorance of the game design and could be solved by clearer explanations of this, but wasn't a game systems fault, just a misunderstanding. If you are referring to my example of higher levels being able to kill your mobs and "grief" than this is a case of the system being in place to limit powerleveling, which is a far more common occurrence than a high level player griefing by kill low levels mobs for another player for an extended period of time, a reasonable trade off given how little that griefing occurs.
    I'm not arguing the whole of human progress here, see #2 re: arguing semantics.
    Did I miss the message where I said "jerks is the problem and that's not the problem of the game designers" because you seem to be quoting things I don't remember saying. For most of this I would argue your view of a community is completely subjective and would change from person to person, so it's irrelevant. I will say that game design choices can reward or discourage jerkish behaviour but that was never a point I argued. I am arguing that the few "jerkish" issues of a closed tag system are relatively minor and in my view far easier to deal with than the problems inherent to open tag systems.
    Not an actual quote of mine either but at least closer to what I was saying than most of your "quotes". I said it made it more realistic and it does, jerks do exist in the real world and always will. This I will admit is my weakest point and not really something I care about. I will point out that jerks tagging mobs in a game in no way equates to the same thing as bullies injuring or making kids feel terrible about themselves at school or criminals, come on honestly dude.
    Another fabricated "quote" I never said this and I don't even agree with that statement in the slightest.
  9. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, it is intelligent design. Remember we are talking about grinding on mobs (not rare or quest mobs, just general world monsters), where a player is enjoying killing mobs by themselves or with group mates. There is no need external assistance in this scenario, thus having other people come over and join in on the fight actually takes away from the enjoyment.

    Rewarding players for infringing on such enjoyment is a poor choice. Let the player tag it, deal with it and obtain full experience rewards for doing so. If someone decides to help, they shouldn't be credited if not part of the group.
  10. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    It’s not a fabricated quote. They are giving their opinion against what they think you are saying, thus the word “notion”,

    in their reply. The proper response to this is “That is not what I was saying; this (this being a better explanation) is what I meant.

    I’m unsure how to read what you said other than; Because Jerks exist in the real world, their existence in a MMO is perfectly fine. If this is not what you meant then it’s your responsibility to clear up the misunderstanding. Note, your reply to Felion did not clarify your previous argument, it redacted :D your previous argument.
  11. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I know what notion means, I am saying I never said anything along the lines of what they quoted, by putting it in quotes it makes it appear that I said that, when in fact I didn't. I can't clarify my "previous argument" because it doesn't exist. If they wanted me to clarify an argument of mine they didn't fully understand or something along those lines they should quote what I actually said and ask for clarification on that particular bit of text.
    Do you think through any combination of game systems you will every arrive at a engaging and fun game that is 100% free of jerks, I don't think such a utopia will ever exist I'm sorry. So yes because human nature is what it is and we will always have jerks, I think it's perfectly acceptable and expected to encounter jerks in a MMO. Mitigating the amount of jerks you encounter through reasonable means is a worthy goal but I don't think the closed tagging systems has so many problems with jerks that I would trade it for the gameplay problems associated with open tagging.
  12. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    That is still flawed. I agree it's a great design... For a single player game, or a small LAN game. It's not a good design for an MMO.

    Keep in mind that with open tagging, you can still go soloing, and with a small party of friends. You have the OPTION to move away from people if you so desire, no one is stopping you. However, you are not FORCED to move away from other people. Personally, I like more options, not less. It simply makes no sense for a massive multiplayer game...
  13. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Guess we just disagree. Someone coming along, leaching experience and forcing me to move doesn't sound all that enjoyable to sociable.

    Yes, it's a massive multi-player game. If someone wants to force assistance on me when I don't want it, that's all well and good, they just should not get rewarded for such action when it isn't needed or wanted. A closed tagging system can let them be as sociable as they would like and assist me, it just doesn't take away from my reward if they do.
  14. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Sure, different point of views I guess, so we can leave it there. One thing to keep in mind though, is that in open tagging systems like GW2, no one loses anything. You still get full xp and loot even of someone comes and bashes the mob you are bashing. There are different kinds of open tagging systems, and yeah, some are really bad, and some are pretty good. I guess the same goes for closed tagging, it's not bad in all situations (avoids boss zerging for example).

    Let's hope Carbine can get a good system down for us :)
  15. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I’m unsure how you can leach experience in an open tagging system. The two games that I have played with open tagging gave the same amount of XP whether you were sharing the MOB or not. Sharing the MOBs meant that you took them out that much faster, gaining more XP per hour. This is a form of grouping; informal, but still grouping. CoHV gave clearly seen benefits to formalizing your group, thus people would often formalize an informal group. GW2 did not, so people did not formalize groups.
  16. Syberchip

    Syberchip Cupcake

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    I'm gonna lean towards a combination of both depending on the circumstances.
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  17. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a Strawman; unless you meant to reply to Felion.
    Expected; yeah Jerks will find a way to be jerks. Acceptable; no fricken way.
  18. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have yet to see a system that gives full experience to everyone who tags a monster. Even GW2, each person had to do a certain amount to gain a reward. If people came along and would up clobbering a monster before you could reach the threshold, you got nothing. Other systems with open gave experience based on how much you assisted.

    Either way, the whole open system, when designed to prevent extreme exploitation, has pitfalls where other players can take away from an individual.

    Again, this is on non-quest, rare or event monsters I speak. I think someone should be able to enjoy their combat experience without others being encouraged and rewarded for interfering.
  19. Dwel

    Dwel Cupcake

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    I think a combination of the two could work where both on their own cannot.

    For example, keep tagging as a main way of deciding who gets 100% of the mob's exp (regardless of how much damage he does afterwards), but also reward any people that assisted to a certain degree (a 10% threshold if not more) a portion of that exp based on their assistance, but capped at 50% of it (so it's never fully viable to "leech"). Tagger gets 100% exp, the helpers get a max of 50% exp.

    Loot-wise, it's trickier. The tagger should receive loot as usual, however what should the assisting person get?
    If the assisting person can get loot as well based on how much damage he does, then it creates a system that's open to exploitation (one person tags, the other kills -> doubles the loot received); this doesn't work.

    I believe that for loot, assisting persons should be able to pickup quest items if they pass the threshold that enables them to receive some exp, but never anything else (currency, gear, etc.). However, to reward people for helping each other when in need, there could be a system that enables the assisting player to get full loot every once in a while (long cooldown of sorts). Something that can push you to help even if it's out of your way, but not something that can be exploited.

    This would form a hybrid system. Classic MMO tagging in regards to loot and exp for the tagger, but the advantage of helping out nearby players for some exp and especially for quest items (one of the main annoyances when questing in a crowded area).
  20. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Interesting; not once have I not gotten XP, when I initiated combat. In fact I have no memory of not getting XP when I jumped into combat. Of course I don’t jump into combat when the MOB is mostly dead.

    And I would not recommend that W* follow this format.

    W* is an MMO, which stands for Massively Multiplayer Online. This means that there are many other people in your game. A closed system does not mean that you don’t have to interact with those other people. A ranged class can tag a MOB right out from under your Melee class. A runner can tag a MOB right out from under your group. This kind of gosa happened all the time in EQ, especially at the lower and middle levels (I’m an Altaholic.).

    I’m really getting fricken tired of this argument. It implies that there are no issues with a closed tagging system, when we know that this is not true (Hells; you say “prevent extreme exploitation” in your statement.), and MMO Devs know that this is not true; or they would not have been looking for alternatives since EQ.

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