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The Black Sheep of the Holy Trinity Setup in PvP

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Extatica, Jun 22, 2013.

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What do you think about PvP tanking?

  1. I think they are underappreciated

    35 vote(s)
    21.6%
  2. I've never played a tank in PvP before

    18 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. I don't like being a tank at all both in PvE and PvP

    8 vote(s)
    4.9%
  4. I don't like being a PvP tank for reasons that i post below....

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  5. I like being a PvP tank but........i post below my concerns)

    5 vote(s)
    3.1%
  6. I do hope they make PvP tanking more viable in a PvP setting.

    85 vote(s)
    52.5%
  7. Other......i post below

    10 vote(s)
    6.2%
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  1. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    This is my opinion/idea please repsect each others idea's/opinions and keep things civil.

    This is a honest concern/question from my side! And i want to hear what you guys have to say about this :D

    Oke i'll begin saying that i'm absolutely trilled knowing that the game i want to play uses the Holy Trinity settup.

    For those unfamilier with the Holy Trinity setup:
    BUT!! this is not a thread in which we will talk about the holy trinity, and if you like it, and what is good or bad.
    Because in this thread we'll be discussing, what i see as ''The Black Sheep'' of the holy trinity setup in PvP.

    I myself am mostly a tank in raids, and a otherwise a healer. In PvP however i'm always a healer instead of a tank. (<-- this is a point, remember it)

    In Raids this works well, everyone has a job to do, and i like it in raids.
    In PvP i do see something else happening.

    PvP is full of DPS'ers, with a few healers (sometimes you are unlucky and in a group with almost no healers or in a group with alot of healers).

    But where are the tanks in PvP?!?!??!?!?!

    Yes there is occasionally a lost tank in PvP, you mostly see them in Battlegrounds. Capture the flag is something they can really add something since they are hard to kill. But alot of the games that are using the Holy Trinity setup, are in my opinion neglecting Tank in PvP! In WildStar i hope to see more love for the PvP tanking role. And with this i don't want to see more tank in Battleground, but i also want to see more tanks in ARENA! Yes arena! and then i don't mean in low ELO (WS uses ELO rating), but i want PvP tanks have a chance to get as high as DPS/healers.

    I for 1 time want to see PvP tanks being able to be on par with DPS's or Healers in ELO ratings.

    Yes the settups can be quit hard/tough. Because the normal 2v2 setup is either 2 dps for a high/fast nuke, or a healer+dps for some nice dps and some survivability. Having a tank+dps will have less dmg then 2 dps, and a healer+tank will have a hard time killing a healer+dps group, since the tank won't do as much dmg to the healer as their dps does to your healer.

    But could a Tank+Tank be an option? Nice survivability by sharing damage, with nice health pools. Meaning they won't die as fast as a 2dps group. Having 2 tanks can be on par or even better in dmg then a dps+healer group. So is this a possibility?

    Let's check some more things about PvP tanking:

    Some games don't even have different gear for (let's say) a warrior in Tanking specc and a warrior in DPS specc, as a tank warrior you are expected to either use the same gear as the dps or use your PvE gear.

    Some games and situations are better for a PvE tank then a PvP tank in a PvP setting.
    For example:
    AV in WoW, you need to kill the enemy commander......oke nice, fine objective.....if that commander wasn't a NPC......since in this case a Raid tank is STRONG! (really they get so much less damage then a tank in PvP gear would get from that commander + guards). So again the PvP tank is less usefull, while it's in a battleground = PvP setting.....

    And i see this happening with alot more games, that use the Holy Trinity.

    So i want to open a discussion and ask some questions at the same time!

    Questions + Discussion:
    Which game that uses the Holy Trinity setup, has a real rol for PvP tanks in their game?
    Do you know such game?
    Which game was it?
    And what did they do to make it work?
    Do you guys think PvP tanking should be possible at higher ELO PvP'ing?
    and Why or Why not?
    Do games neglect Tanks in PvP?
    Do you happen to have some nice idea's for PvP tanking?

    Alot of questions, i don't expect you guys to asnwer them all. But i'm really curious since i'm a real tank in my heart, and there is nothing i would do rather then be a tank in both PvE and PvP setting :up:
  2. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    From the AMAA:

    http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/combat-pvp-reddit-amaa-on-wednesday.1604/#post-26821

    ThePartrician: Are tanks going to have roles to fill in PvP? Taunts reducing damage others around the tank take unless someone targets them? Shielding abilities that transfer a percentage of the damage a targeted ally takes back to the tank? Anything else a tank can do that's unique to that "mindset" in PvP?
    CRB_Clynch: Tanks will have a good arsenal of abilities that will help them fulfill their tank role in PVP. A small sample of these tools include:
    • Taunt: If a Tank taunts an enemy, the enemy will deal reduced damage to everyone but the Tank that taunted.
    • Tether: Let’s say someone is chasing your healer (or another one of your friends). You can create an anchor in the world that the enemy player will be tethered to. Once tethered, that enemy player can only move a set amount of distance away from that anchor until the anchor is destroyed or wears off.
    • Pull: Another case of someone chasing your healer (or another one of your friends!). In this case, you can aim at the enemy and launch a chain at them that will them pull them to your current location, buying your friend precious time to get away.
    gnollcandy: Does this mean you can stack that Taunt to give DPS constant damage reduction? D:
    CRB_Clynch: Currently you can only be under the effects of one Taunt ability at a time, but you could stagger your Taunt ability out.

    CRB_Aether: Without going into a tirade, if two tanks taunted then tethered together as a tactic, what's the time it takes to tell the total tabulation of the attack without taking into account a title for the taunter/tauntee?
    Leiloni, Hephen, Phyllo and 1 other person like this.
  3. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Short point, a trinity setup for any game isn't bad and it has gotten a bad name unrightfully as whether or not such a system is present it all depends on encounter design if fights are dull, predictable and don't require much effort.


    That being said. Tanks is a hard thing to get right in PvP. Over do it and they are gods, under do it and they are not tanks.
    So either as developer you need to say what arena formats the game is balanced around and reward accordingly. As yes i do believe that Carbine will need to take a hard look at saying that they find 2v2 equal to 3V3 or 5v5.

    We know from other games that 2v2 is generally a joke, because of double tank, double healer setups and so forth a mmo is balanced on group play and 2 players is not a group, 3 you can manage as you have more options there. So if carbine is looking to balance arena on all formats, even with their best intentions they will fail as balancing 2v2 is as balancing rock paper and scissor (1v1) impossible and foolish.

    (as tanks roles are know in koth and ctf maps i'm not going to stress on those points)

    That being said from my experience tanks in WoW are rather badly done in PvP, for that reason we need to take a better look at Warhammer, yes one of the few things done right there.
    Tanks in Warhammer had taunts, those taunts made it so the enemy players effected by it did less damage to the person it was attacking instead of a the tank, a defensive small but short cd to take of pressure and actually tank.
    The other ability was a "guard" a guard essentially transferred a part of the damage taken by the person back to the tank.

    Clearly these are rough examples as one can imagine the balance issues when don't incorrectly.

    A tank for me generally does not do a lot of damage or is very offensive the worst example over the years is what i noticed in Swtor, where i played an assassin, a tank able to deal out a lot of damage, take a lot of damage and being able to stealth. With an abnormal amount of mobility cd's.

    A tank for me is in an arena setting is a peeler, a person that reduces pressure. generally dps can do this as there's no way in most games for a tank to consistently absorb damage on the pressured target.
    To change that you would need to give a tank the easiest access to pulls, snares and roots of their dps counter parts. Soft crowd controls not hard ones (such as stuns, fears etc) as putting those on a tank generally gives people build options to create an offensive burst tank, what is bad.
    In addition to that abilities from Warhammer need to find their way into the game one way or another, a way to on regular intervals reduce pressure directly by taking damage instead of the target in a team.

    edit; just read the post above me, seems they are on the right track.
    Androssi, teh_ninjaneer and Extatica like this.
  4. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Loosely quoted;

    "When protection specs are having fun in PvP, generally no one else is." -Greg Street.

    Close to unkillable specs with endless amount of controll, might not be the strongest opponents, but can make games long and frustrating if they don't play to win, instead play Not-to-lose.
    Wubzorz likes this.
  5. Lids

    Lids Cupcake

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    Which game that uses the Holy Trinity setup, has a real roll for PvP tanks in their game?
    It depends what kind of PvP you mean, for example in capture the flag a tank is needed but if you mean bog standard 3v3 arena then there have hardly been any times where you can play at the top 0.5% as a tank, the only time I personally know was the ATC comp in WoW which was only possible due to the tank being able to do lots of DPS as well.

    Do you know such game?
    In lower brackets tanks can be viable in every single game, but at higher brackets when playing against a team who will put out CC when damage is coming and a healer who knows when to use cool downs, it just is not possible to have a tank in a arena team without it being able to do equal damage to the DPS.

    Which game was it?
    WoW ATC comp and arguably Blood DKs but they still could not be played at the top 0.5%

    And what did they do to make it work?
    The reason ATC and Blood DK comps worked was that the tank could not just take lots of damage, but if left alone would also do just as much damage as a DPS, it also rely'd on the fact that they could both peel pretty well for their team mates, so there was no option other than to go on the tanks.

    Do you guys think PvP tanking should be possible at higher ELO PvP'ing?
    It would be a nice aspect into the game, but it just isn't possible at the highest ELO, look at it this way, when playing 3v3 with 2 DPS, the highest teams will be able to co-ordinate their CC and cool downs to counteract their opponents damage, when you take away one of these in place for a tank, unless this tank has a stupid about of CC which causes more problems than it fixes, it just isn't viable at high ranks.

    and Why or Why not?
    Explained above, but it comes down to good teams being able to deal with damage already, if you take even less damage you just wont be able to get a kill, if you give them enough CC to lose to damage this causes a whole bunch of other balance problems

    Do games neglect Tanks in PvP?
    Its not a matter of neglect, I just don't think there are any options to allow them to be a big part of arena at the moment.

    Do you happen to have some nice idea's for PvP tanking?
    I guess it is possible to allow tanks to have a bit more CC and superior peeling to DPS, this is a really slippery slope though and it has to be done perfectly to assure that other balance issues do not occur.

    Any speculation on how PvP tank will be in WildStar?
    I do not think they will have a place in arena, if they do the only possible way is to take all CC and peel abilities and wear tank gear, then run with a hybrid (heal and dps, for example a disc priest pre cata) and a strong burst DPS to set up kills. Tanks will have a big place in Warplots though and this is where they will shine as they can carry objectives.
    Extatica likes this.
  6. celestria

    celestria Cupcake

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    Although the game did a lot of other things just plain wrong I have to say that SWTOR did an awesome job of making tanks useful in PvP.

    For those who don't know:
    In PvP Tanks had a skill called guard. Put it on a friendly player and you will share 50% of his damage.
    In PvP Taunts would cause the taunted player to inflict 30% less damage to everyone except the tank for the duration of the taunt debuff.

    These two mechanics made you think twice whether you should be attacking the squishy healer who's taking only 30% of the damage you throw at him, pound the tank who has twice the amount of HP, armor and survivability or try to separate them (the damage transfer had a limited range).


    These two mechanics made tanking in PvP a lot of fun. Even if you were 100% into PvE Tanking before.
    I would be happy if we'd get something similar in WildStar.
    Afrotech, OGee and Extatica like this.
  7. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I've read that Kataryne, but thanks for posting it since it helps alot :up:

    But having abilities to fulfill a tank role in PvP, does not mean they are viable! ;)

    With Viable i mean, will tanks be able to do arena at a decent/high level? (ELO ratingn in WS's case)

    WoW tanks had some tanking abilities aswell, but it was so badly done.....I loved playing WoW, but it ruined my PvP Tanking experience.

    I didn't made it till max level in Warhammer, and don't know <REDACTED> about the PvP/Arena in WildHammer.

    Could you give me/us some more examples info about PvP Tanks in the WildHammer PvP setting? How were they in Arena? Viable or not? :confused:

    Well for me beig unkillable isn't fun either....so i think this guy (Greg Street) think being OP is fun....Nah.....i rather have a balanced game :cool:
    So i think they can still make ''protective specc's fun in PvP'' without being unkillable! Don't you think?

    Edit: Thanks AcidBaron in WoW's context it's true indeed :p
    Malorak likes this.
  8. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    So far i know there wasn't any arena in Warhammer, but as i pointed out it had more to do with the fact the tanks there could effectively reduce incoming damage directly that seems to be the case here as well with a copy of that taunt mechanic.

    edit: greg street comment has to be looked in the context of WoW and not in mmo's in general.
    Tanks in WoW has gone through some pretty odd stages. Hence the quote.
  9. Level9Zubat

    Level9Zubat Cupcake

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    I loved being a Chaos Chosen in WAR, and I felt like I was really "tanking" in a PVP setting. Was loads of fun although I do feel PVP tanks are unappreciated, and people aren't really aware of what they're doing.
    Extatica likes this.
  10. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    In Kataryna's post, the taunt style described is how Warhammer Online works. I would assume that Wildstar will also borrow their detaunt style for healers - detaunt worked in a radius and reduced the damage dealt to you by everyone around you until the effect wore off or until you dealt damage to someone.

    Back to the topic of tanks specifically, Warhammer gave tanks abilities such as snares so people could be run down by the melee (or to protect heals/kite away from the ranged) and also the Guard ability which would reduce the damage dealt to the Guarded target. This could be used offensively to push through a line with your melee DPS or defensively when you are protecting healers/ranged DPS.

    My personal opinion is that tanks should be light on actual damage-dealing abilities; above healers, sure, but nowhere near the capabilities of a true DPS build. I think most of your crowd-control skills should be given to the tank. He should be the one who actually controls the battlefield and the placement of targets. The tank should also be the guy with the personal "cleanse" type abilities. It's fine if the healer/support types can free others from CC, but the tank should be the most mobile guy in the PvP battle on his own.

    Ranged "wizard-types" should not be the ones to get 30-60 second roots and stuns. Those guys should have access to long-cooldown escape abilities. Either they burn down the target before it gets to them or else they better find some help fast.

    Edit - I see AcidBaron played some Warhammer also.
    Malorak, Baamz and Extatica like this.
  11. Marakesh

    Marakesh Cupcake

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    Tanks do just fine in wpvp and bg's, its only arenas where they have never found a place. I seem to recall Warhammer gave tanks abilities to reduce damage their allies took if their opponents didn't do a certain amount to them. Felt a bit artificial though.

    It appears arena is the only organized pvp and then there is this battling housing in the air thing, but I'm not sure how that works. If you need to defend a certain point or object, like the flag in warsong or the flag in arathi basin, then tanks will have a place in the warring house islands thing.
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  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well i'm not talking about WPvP, since that's one of the hardest thing to balance.

    In BG's they do have a place in protecting flags or other objects. True.

    But i want to see them do more then only that.

    As for the Warplot PvP (not warring house :p) I'm not afraid of that. Strangly i see tanks being more viable in Warplots then in BG's.

    But i wish they could increase the viability of Tanks in all kind of PvP setting (so BG, Warplot and Arena).
    Oke i know it's hard to make it so Tanks can go into the Top of Arena, but i'm not asking for the ultimate top, but i don't want to see them as the bottom either.
  13. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    1. World of Warcraft has or had it.
    2. Yes.
    3. World of Warcraft
    4. Protection specs were able to stack Vengeance from PvP damage, high crowd controll, high amount of peels, hard to be peeled them selves, high mobility, decent damage if not being damaged, insane damage if being damaged.
    5. Yes for battlegrounds and warplots, can not comment for arena.
    6. They don't harm gameplay in Battlegrounds and Warplots, and can have important job. I absolutelly have no suggestion how to balance protection specs in arena.
    7. Yes.
    8. No.
    Extatica likes this.
  14. Riuuki

    Riuuki Cupcake

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    A lot of games recently are noticing the importance of involving everyone, yeah sure Tank specs are always known for their PvE attributes but game developers are trying to make everything more viable in their own way, but they can only do so much alone without the help of the gamer (i.e a reason to change, what to change and how).
  15. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Yup :up:

    That's why i post things like this, so people can think/discuss about it, and learn form other games/players. And hopefully some Carbine staff will come along and read some of it, and mayby get some new idea's thoughts.
  16. Riuuki

    Riuuki Cupcake

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    I wouldn't be surprised, I tend to solo play and via a reply on Twitter, I can say I am VERY happy with the Carbine team. EEEEEEE
  17. Phyllo

    Phyllo Cupcake

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    The only way I see tanks truly being viable in competitive play is to make the tank a support role like a healer. To do this you would have to take most if not all of the cc away from other specs and classes and give it solely to tanks. It would be like a healer being the only one with heals, the tank would be the only one with supportive cc, peels and damage reductions. Sacrificing damage in that spec as a trade off for a good health pool and cc. Meanwhile dps would have the cc breakers and escape abilities to help counter.

    This would possibly make tanks needed just as much as a healer in all team comps save 2v2.

    Games like Archeblade/Forge and other arena only games do this, the tank has that specific role to play. As well as in some Mobas I believe.

    Whether the same thing would work in an mmo with pve in mind is another question all together though.

    Sorry if this post is sort of garbled it's been a long day.
  18. Lids

    Lids Cupcake

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    I completely forgot about that, we never actually got to experience it in an arena which is much harder to balance than battlegrounds, but it did feel like a good system that merged well with the way you played a tank in SWTOR - I would say they did a good job in keeping their damage high but not too high.
  19. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Tanks are viable as long as they cant be ignored.

    but the reason they cannot be ignore can never be their damage, they need to be annoying and maybe reduce damage done to their group, debuff enemies, etc.

    The thing is everyone on WSO can be kinda hybirds due to the limited action slots.

    So i dont think full tanks will be viable on PvP, but rather a smart combination of damage mitigation, cc and some burst damage.

    that is my prediction

    Also tanks are very good on games with colision detection betwen players, Tera is a great exemple of that.

    they also usually are very good for large scale PvP such as L2 sieges.
  20. Malachi Draven

    Malachi Draven New Cupcake

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    I don't like Tanks in PvP. Too hard to balance. They're either too overpowered or they're completely worthless. Tanks just aren't viable in PvP because you can't FORCE a player to target you instead of your healer.

    Sure, WildStar is trying to make Tanks viable with taunts making the target do less damage to other players except the tank that taunted him, and some other mechanics like Pulls. But I think it's a waste of time. Tanks only work when they can soak up damage, and there's no way to FORCE someone to damage the tank instead of healers or dps.

    And if I'm taunted and I actually AM forced to switch targets, then I'm going to be pissed off because that's a stupid mechanic that should only work on AI.

    Tanks should stick to PvE. Better yet, just get rid of Tanks completely. They work on a completely silly mechanic (shouting at something does not magically make the target tunnelvision you, even the stupidest AI should be able to focus your healer and ignore a tank).
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