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The Black Sheep of the Holy Trinity Setup in PvP

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Extatica, Jun 22, 2013.

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What do you think about PvP tanking?

  1. I think they are underappreciated

    35 vote(s)
    21.6%
  2. I've never played a tank in PvP before

    18 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. I don't like being a tank at all both in PvE and PvP

    8 vote(s)
    4.9%
  4. I don't like being a PvP tank for reasons that i post below....

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  5. I like being a PvP tank but........i post below my concerns)

    5 vote(s)
    3.1%
  6. I do hope they make PvP tanking more viable in a PvP setting.

    85 vote(s)
    52.5%
  7. Other......i post below

    10 vote(s)
    6.2%
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  1. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I personally only have played SWTOR and not WAR. So thank you for telling me how it was in WAR.

    Again, in the majority of the games i've played it's like in WoW. Yes (as i've stated before), there are games that have done it right like SWTOR (WAR according to you). Also because it's a holy trinity class I didn't used any games that doesn't have it (GW, DCUO etc. etc.)

    But since I don't know how it's going to be in WS i've said what i've said in this thread.

    I just hope Carbine doesn't just think that tanks wouldn't need to be looked at for PvP. I just hope they make some nice decissions about tanks in WS (for PvP). And not like in some other games were they felt to be left out of PvP.
  2. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    It may also be worth noting that skills have to be chosen for loadouts, as opposed to a tank having all it's available skills spread out over three bars. This means that tanks (and every other player) are going to differ from others of their class depending on what loadout they've come equipped with. It may be difficult to discuss the tank class as a whole, since you'll likely have subsets of more offensive or defensive-minded tanks in PvP and possibly even the notion of switching those loadouts up depending on the PvP situation and size.
  3. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    True, and that on itself has me looking positive towards the PvP scene of WS.
    But nonetheless cookie cutter builds will come to some degree. And I just hope tanks have some good rotations to go up against the DPS builds.

    AKA: I hope the tank abilities are not way weaker then dps abilities in PvP. Also can a tank be called a tank if he only has DPS gear and abilities? (I call them dps then)
    So yeh I was kinda talking about someone who would pick atleast 60% of his abilities as tank abilities (which to me are of a bit more supporting nature).

    Also having tank PvP gear would be nice aswell....seeing as (in this case WoW yes) doesn't even has tank PvP gear...they just take the DPS gear.
  4. Ratstomper

    Ratstomper Cupcake

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    Ah, but there enlies the danger of cookie cutter builds.. those who aren't clever enough to make their own build won't be able to beat those who can. Just takes one person who knows how to counter a build to stomp a LOT of people.
  5. BennyBones

    BennyBones Cupcake

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    Tank abilities have to be different than the DPS though. The tanks are likely to have passive mitigation abilities and be geared towards taking a punishment. If all they have are DPS abilities it seems as if the difference between DPS and Tank in terms of damage will be relatively small. So a tank will be able to take more of a beating and do only somewhat less damage.

    The thing is, if you look at SWTOR tanks were really useful in BGs. Because they were able to lower the damage enemies did to your team. So that was good. But in an arena situation the option would likely be between a tank and a healer. And a healer is capable of putting out much better and much stronger support than the tank. Great that the tank managed to stop 50k damage from happening. The healer healed 200k. Clearly the healer would be more desirable if you had only a few spots. In a rated BG the SWTOR system may still allow for a tank or two, specially if you look at carry the flag type games. Plus, they had a lot of gap closers and pushes and pulls and things. Very useful. But again, if the choice was between a SWTOR healer and a SWTOR tank, I'd pick the healer 9 times out of 10.

    So even in SWTOR, while useful, the tank was inferior to the healer as a support character. I know hybrids were really popular in SWTOR, and with good reason. But pure tank builds have to have inferior damage. And they're unlikely to be as viable as healers for support. So I think they'll remain the black sheep of PvP.

    I don't know how to solve it either. Sure, the SWTOR way is better than nothing. But it only makes the tank more viable, it doesn't actually make it a class where it's a tough choice between whether to take a tank or a healer. You need one or two tanks for capture the flag, for the rest a healer was still a better option.
  6. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I totally agree with you (ofcourse).

    I wish tanks could be more of a protective supporter instead of a healer, but still ''kinda'' be able to be on par (or just below) the level of a healer (in the PvP scene).

    Weither they would do this trough the gear or trough some other means (abilities) I don't care.

    As for the SWTOR (WAR) solution, I think it's the closest to what I want :D Wish WS could get even closer ;)
  7. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not entirely true. Tanks were invaluable in rated warzones in SWTOR. Every warzone had a 'protect the node' mechanic, except for Huttball which was a fun version of capture the flag, and tanks were beyond the best for this. Not only that, though, but a good tank could keep your healers & DPS alive through anything and severely limit the enemy teams healing. They could slow the enemy team from reaching its goals (tanks tended to take more utility and had more access to it) and thus win games. They were just as important as healers and DPS in ranked wzs, without a tank or two you were finished, in any match. SWTOR (and as someone pointed out, WAR) did it very well. In fact, in an mmo, SWTOR had the best PvP mechanics I've ever tried (crippling class imbalance notwithstanding) and a huge reason for that was the trinity it catered to... that and Huttball. I miss Huttball :(
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  8. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    SWTOR had awful PvP, let's not bring any of those ideas here. Healer's had a flat 30% nerf to healing in PvP which was a stupid idea - why should any class get a flat 30% nerf to performance when no one else does? And then on top of that, they were designed with the expectation that you'd have a tank babysitting you with guard all day and if you didn't, you had crappy survivability for a healer. So nerf our heals, nerf our survivability.... I think the devs just didn't have a clue how to make a fun, balanced game and hated healers to no end.

    No class should be half a class in PvP and no mechanic should be so powerful that you can't even play without it. TERA did it right IMO when it came to tanks and healers in PvP. If Wildstar designs classes more along those lines instead of these old tab target games everyone will be happy. The difference between tab target and action games is so much IMO, that you can't really bring any expectations or ideas from tab target games into a game like Wildstar. They're going to have to do things entirely differently here because their combat is just so different.
  9. BennyBones

    BennyBones Cupcake

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    Personally I loved SWTOR PvP until patch 1.2 or whatever, the one which seemed to completely screw up the class balance.

    When I say capture the flag in relations to SWTOR obviously I'm referring to Huttball. So I'm in agreement with you that tanks certainly had a use there. In fact, virtually all of what you said I said as well. So we're pretty much in agreement on what tanks are good at.

    The thing we seem to see differently is how useful the tank was. A lot of the things mentioned here could be done by hybrids. The one big advantage the tank had was it's ability to take damage. All the other things was achievable by a hybrid. So running the ball and potentially holding down a point until reinforcements arrived (I say potentially, a lot of hybrids were perfectly capable of doing that as well).

    But since they've changed class balance, likely many many times since I stopped playing, perhaps things have changed and today hybrids aren't particularly useful anymore. So my perspective might simply not be relevant anymore. But from where I was coming I would maintain that tanks, while in a better spot than in most games, still were the black sheep of PvP.
  10. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Luck doesn't have to play an important part of an MMO. That's part of why action games are becoming more popular - they focus more on skill than luck. Games like TERA have no hit, block, or evade stat at all. You manually have to hit your evasion or block skills in TERA or manually move out of the attack. If you want to hit a target, you have to aim properly. Neverwinter is similar - you have to manually aim to hit your target and while they have deflect and protection stats, they don't do much because you're expected to manually dodge or block to avoid big hits. If you don't, you're in trouble.

    Action games force you to deal with these things to be effective and with all the hard hitting telegraphs in Wildstar, I expect we'll have to worry about manually avoiding attacks as well. The defensive stats on our gear will be there for the base defenses, but mid combat it won't be like WoW where you rely purely on gear to survive hits via mostly passive defense - you will need to either manually move out of a big attack, or use an evasion or protective skill from your LAS at the right time. This changes things a lot.

    We've already seen in various convention demo videos from Wildstar (and this past weekend's Twitch stream as well) how movement, aiming, and positioning affect gameplay in Wildstar. Some videos the player wasn't all that great and some they were, and the differences in outcomes is huge. Sure Wildstar will probably have some sort of hit stat, but with so many skills being free form targeted - you will have to learn to aim or it won't matter how much hit you have. We'll have passive defensive stats, but if you don't dodge out of that telegraph, you'll likely be on your ass and less a huge chunk of HP.
  11. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Like all games there will be to most beneficial PvP spec, but the only Tank that often went hybrid in ranked wzs, really, was the Assassin, but even then many went full (or near full) tank. Hybrid or no, though, they were the tanks of the team and performed the duty of tanks.

    Just because they have found the most beneficial spec (and SWTOR's speccing allowed alot of choice, which was the point of it) doesn't mean they weren't tanks, or acted as such. No DPS nor healer could do a better job. There was the trinity for PvP in SWTOR and it was very effective, Tanks were vital for any serious PvP.

    So hybridising to find the best spec for your role doesn't render your role obsolete, instead you are just finding the best spec. As a Sorc healer I hybridised, but I was still a healer; It was just 'bubble pop' was the best to heal with.
  12. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Every time I see Aurin's name I think of the Alicia Keys song "Girl on Fire" - This girl is on fiiirrreeeee!!!!!
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  13. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    In random warzones (non ranked) having a tank to babysit you wasn't crucial unless you were up against a premade, it was pretty easy to survive as a healer and do well. In ranked warzones, though, it was crucial and that is how it should be. In a competative scene you should need to use your team to win, instead of being able to do it all on your lonesome. You wouldn't expect to raid without a tank or DPS, so why expect competative PvP to be like that?

    SWTOR PvP had its faults (awful class balancing) but it had alot of merits. Healers were pretty insane for survivability & effectiveness; Stealth & cover for Operatives; Sprint & bubblepop for Sorcs; & walking tank for Mercs. If you used your abilities to their maximum (Slows, stuns, CCs), and also utilised your environment (LoS) you were nigh unkillable in randoms without so much as a sniff of a guard. They really had no issues so long as you ignore the fiasco that was Rage Juggernauts.
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  14. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    PvP in wildstar is going to be amazing if they get tanks right.

    I am quite worried it will be the most attrition based pvp to date though.
  15. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except I'm already reliant on my teammates for 2 things - a) I can't kill anyone without a teammate cause I'm a healer, and b)since I heal people I can't actually contribute to the match unless I have a teammate by my side. By my very nature as a healer I am extremely reliant on my team, whereas the DPS can do their job without me, I merely make it easier. Why then should you add another layer of reliance onto my class? So not only can I not do jack without a dps by my side, but now even if I have said dps by my side, I'm still only half of a healer without a tank to keep me alive (even though I specialize in keeping people alive as a healer I can't do so for myself) and I can't even heal at my full potential without a set of PvP gear (when in fact that gear should make me do better than base values, not at base values).

    There was so much wrong with SWTOR PvP. People are already heavily reliant on each other in any trinity game and that extends into PvP. You don't need to screw it up because it already works.
  16. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Have to disagree, I'm afraid. I actually enjoyed the fact tanks were able to contribute to PvP more than in other games. I enjoyed working with players in a different way to how you work with DPS in other games. I also never had an issue with survival in random warzones and I found the healer / DPS format only in other MMO PvP to be dull and predictable. It was the only game where I actually played a tank because of how fun they made them, and how more dynamic PvP was as a result.

    Each to their own, I suppose. I just hope they follow SWTORs & WARs example. :>
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  17. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can make tanks good in PvP without screwing over the healer class though. That's my point. Other games have done it well. SWTOR just had poor design. You don't "fix" one class by breaking another.

    Here since no one is bothering to read the full thread I'll just copy/paste myself. This is what I posted back in June on page 2 of this thread. This is not even the only game to do PvP tanking well, it's just the example I have the most experience with, but you can make tanks not only viable but highly desired in PvP with the right design ideas, all while leaving other classes alone:

  18. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alot of what you've described is what SWTOR had for their tanks. Also, I don't think it screwed over the healing class at all, so there is where we disagree. I had zero issues surviving without guard: zero. I honestly have no idea how you did, or seem to have done. In ranked it made it more fun because you had to work very closely with your team.

    It is unfortunate you had issues, but not everyone did. Did you use your environment effectively? Did you use your own stuns / knockbacks / sprints? If you did, you shouldn't have had any issues, guard or no. Tanks enchanced the experience, for me, and took nothing away. :)
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  19. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    In both Old Republic and Warhammer Online, I never saw the Guard mechanic as a defensive tool to keep the healers alive. If a tank had the desire to stand back and protect the healers that's great, then place Guard on anyone getting hit by some deepz that sneak past the line. But the radius on the skill in both games is fairly short.

    I always saw Guard as a tool for pushing the front line. The tank should put it on a lightly armored DPS beside him to reduce incoming damage and make the healer's job a little easier. If the front line is doing their job, they should be rooting or slowing enemies as they run past. The healers and long-range casters should have their own CC tools to deal with anyone who slips through.
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  20. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agree totally. The beauty of the tank classes aswell is that they had charges & sprints which meant they could go to who needed it in seconds. A good tank will be bouncing around the place helping allies in need, and keeping enemy DPS 'peeled' while also doing as much as they can to hassle and divide the enemy healers. They had so much utility and moveability, they were, basically, the ultimate support role. Was very fun to play, especially as a Jugg!
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