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The Black Sheep of the Holy Trinity Setup in PvP

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Extatica, Jun 22, 2013.

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What do you think about PvP tanking?

  1. I think they are underappreciated

    35 vote(s)
    21.6%
  2. I've never played a tank in PvP before

    18 vote(s)
    11.1%
  3. I don't like being a tank at all both in PvE and PvP

    8 vote(s)
    4.9%
  4. I don't like being a PvP tank for reasons that i post below....

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  5. I like being a PvP tank but........i post below my concerns)

    5 vote(s)
    3.1%
  6. I do hope they make PvP tanking more viable in a PvP setting.

    85 vote(s)
    52.5%
  7. Other......i post below

    10 vote(s)
    6.2%
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  1. Radovan

    Radovan New Cupcake

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    Just popped up here to give some opinion.
    I don`t know if you were playing WoW, but since it`s the only game i played, i achieved a lot of <REDACTED> there(wolrd first bosses, rank 1, gladiators etc). But here is what i want to say:
    For battlegrounds, there will always be tanks. Either for guarding flag, tanking opposite faction boss or just running into 10 people for fun. You can`t stop them as they became crucial in it.
    In arena, people won`t play it because enemy team will obviously ignore tank and go for healer/dps.

    And now concers regarding tanks in PvP:
    What they did wrong in WoW (can`t talk about other MMO`s since i didn`t played others) they gave tanks sustain, self healing and insane dps. During Cataclysm, tanks got spell called Vengenace: % of damage u received goes to attack power. What happened next: tanks criting for 80% of healt and one shotting people, while being followed by 2 or more healers( read as IMMORTAL).
    Another thing they did wrong, OVERPOWERED healing. Death knights had shield, blood worms, blood taps etc etc, warriors have second wind, druids had all of it, paladins don`t even want to talk about it.

    So what to do about tanks in PvP, this is my solution, since they announced that every class will have some healing spells:
    - Give them maximum one AoE and one direct stun with 20-25 seconds CD.
    -Reduce damage they deal so they can`t act as DPS.
    -Give them damage receiving debuff after X period of time, so they don`t make arenas last for hours and eventually making you raging and leaving the arena.

    I can`t say much more for now since i don`t have access to beta and PvP items/spells/mechanics. Would be nice if someone from CRB jump in da thread.
  2. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't get to max in that game just cause I got bored and this was the first month it was out, so I don't know if class changes came later that made it better, or if it was better fully geared at max level, who knows. I do remember feeling less powerful than other games I had played and every stream I saw of a level 50 healer had a tank buddy by their side all the time as if that was the way to go. The game was very new then so maybe people figured out better ways to do things later, or maybe patches made it better, I didn't stick around to find out. But this is not about SWTOR, this is about how Wildstar can make things work.

    Arenas will probably have a timer on them that results in a draw if no one wins after x amount of minutes (although the fact that Wildstar's arenas will allow for a set amount of deaths per team before it's over makes me think this will be a non issue). As for healing in PvP I don't think it will have a big enough effect (GW2 style) for it to be an issue, if people even slot them. You'll likely be relying on your healers like in any other trinity game.
  3. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Anyway, this is NOT needed at all!

    For the simple reason of ''LAS-ActionBar''.

    There are too few spaces left for the tank to both have strong healing AND dps abilities. Unless they get a lot of passives (which they won't).
    This again gives me both a good and a bad vibe.

    Good: I love it...no more pop all CD's and kill 1 instantly and win the entire match matches :up:

    Bad: For tanks I just feel like it gives people more reason to completely ignore him and go for the weaker dps/healer.
    In 5v5 it can be nice for you won't have to heal him if no1 goes after the tank. But for 2v2 it can be something that will only work hadn in hand with making tanks less viable in 2v2 play.
  4. Denym

    Denym New Cupcake

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    *repost of old info*
  5. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, the 2nd poster in this thread did already months ago when this thread first was posted. Just to give credit where credit is due, here's that post:

    Kataryna likes this.
  6. Denym

    Denym New Cupcake

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    How could I have missed that lol :oops:.
  7. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    In wow PvP tanks where not "unappreciated" almost every serious rated battleground team had one and a good one could carry a random BG to victory. Where they don't shine is directly in the combat, they tend to do to little damage and are just ignored or CC'd off while players focused healers or targets that could be killed off easily. They really shire at objectives though, carrying a flag they are unmatched a healer and a tank can run a flag all on their own with quite a few of the enemy team on them. This leaves your DPS to case down the other teams flag runner. Protecting an object they where beaten, (IMO) only by a rogue, they could stay alive and as such leave very little time for the enemy to use the gizmo that would flip a base. (rogues could do something similar but with CC) this gives you a large amount of time for assistance to arrive and actually fend off the enemy.

    What they don't need: large DPS, at times prot paladins where stupid OP because they had such high damage mitigation and did far too much damage.
    What they do need: A moderate amount of CC. IMO PvP tanks don't need to be the best CC'ers. That is just an opinion I hold rather loosely. I could be swayed away from it if I had some compelling evidence. Personal experience says that a rugged defense makes tanks essential to ranked PvP even without heavy CC.
  8. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is the root of the issue a lot of games have had, and where games that did PvP tanking well shined. In TERA, tanks could not be ignored. It's what they excelled at was being a royal pain in the ass. Tanks shouldn't do a lot of damage, but they can and should play a similar role that they do in PvE - force the target to deal with them. In PvP they can do this via various means, some of which Carbine has already thought of - pulls/leashes, healing/damage debuffs, etc. - but they can only do that if they're given the ability to not just be CC'd and ignored (and skills like that certainly help them do that I think). That just comes down to good class and game design, but if you allow a tank to merely be "ignored or CC'd" then you've failed at his primary role of forcing a target to deal with him and it doesn't really matter what else he can do.
  9. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    We didn't really disagree to much.

    I was mostly but not directly replying to these questions:


    Which game that uses the Holy Trinity setup, has a real rol for PvP tanks in their game? WoW, RS, and Rift
    Do you know such game? Yes
    Which game was it? WoW, RS, and Rift
    And what did they do to make it work? In wow they made tanks kings of objective capturing and defending. They did the same in rift, go fight a riftstalker rogue in PvP they are hard hitters and extremely mobile tanks that can run a flag with higher defense and more speed than any class in the game and was (last time I played) a very common PvP build for rogues. In runescape "tanking" pures where very common pre-EoC and extremely strong. Currently in RS due to the strength of the shield with abilities that reduce damage taken by 50% and reflect that to the attacker shield/tanking builds are probably the best in 1v1 PvP at the moment.
    Do you guys think PvP tanking should be possible at higher ELO PvP'ing? Yes, and in some games they are. In WoW most rated battlegroup teams included atleast 1 tank.
    and Why or Why not? Because they are part of the combat triangle
    Do games neglect Tanks in PvP? Sometimes, maybe even often but I only seriously played 3 MMORPG's. WoW, RS, and Rift and in all 3 of these tanks where great in PvP
    Do you happen to have some nice idea's for PvP tanking? Make their defense robust enough to keep objectives like no other.

    I only used WoW as example in my post to make the point that they where good in WoW. Tanks don't have to be strong just because they artificially "force" you to deal with them. They are be strong because of their defense makes them great for objectives which in turns forces you to deal with them because they are the one running the flag. Tanks can be viable in PvP in more ways than "forcing" you to deal with them.
    In wow primary role of a tank isn't to make someone deal with them first, it is to take lots of damage. If a tank gets 1 shotted doesn't matter how many taunts they have. Which means their CC should be a focus but second after their defense.

    I also included the 2 other MMORPG's I played and both of those did tanking well too.
    Ultimately we agree that tanks should be viable in rated PvP. I wasn't ever really disagreeing with you that they shouldn't have CC I just don't think great CC is what a tank needs to be effective in PvP. If tanks had both the defense they had in WoW and the sort of abilities they will in W* they would most likely be very OP.

    Tl;dr
    Tanking can be done well, and has been done well in many ways. Often in very different ways. Tanks aren't unappreciated or neglected in the games I listed they just don't work like you are suggesting they should work. The way in which you suggest they work would be a great way for them to function as well provided they gave some of that massive defense they had in WoW in exchange for better defense of their team.

    Edit: I think the main reason you see more DPS in PvP is because players like to rake in killing blows and enjoy the high-risk high-reward style game play that DPS offers. Tanks offer much less risk but much less reward in terms of the individual. It typically takes someone with more foresight and a greater focus on group advancement to play a tank in games.
  10. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Oke so you used WoW meaning i'll respond with WoW ;)

    1 Question I have about rated battlegrounds in WoW = Do they rewards the same gear as arena on the same rating? (I stopped playing with Cata)

    Cause I more meant it to be Arena (Battlegrounds were inferiour to arena in WoW) High ELO (rating in WoW's case) was not BG....I know they currently changed it and BG do have rating.....but it wasn't that case. And I still think arena should reward better gear then BG's. (if it doesn't already)

    In WoW tanks had no place in 2v2/3v3 (arena).

    Yes in BG's they have a place...but not in high Elo/rating arena. The only place you saw them from time to time was 5v5, but even there it wasn't a common sight. And then i'm talking about a minimum of 2200-2300 rating.
    Ofcourse this changed a bit when Blood DK's came, aswell as that momentary buff to tank making them OP. But overall it hasn't been that case.


    Problem:
    Now in WS we know arena will be superior to BG's, that's why I fear the tanks will fall out. Yes in Warplots they have a place but it may be hard to get in there if you can't get arena gear. See my problem?
    Do I need to become dps in order to get my PvP arena tanking gear? Or will I be able to skip to warplots easily? I just want them to have a place in arena (2/2-3/3) aswell :D
  11. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    Yeah in arenas tanks had no place with (very) limited exceptions. I don't know how their gear works. Last time I played they had made resil baseline for everyone and removed it off most gear. They also capped the max iLvl gear you could have in BGs.

    I consider high elo anything above average rating. To many players would be alienated if we focused on what was most effective in 3v3 at the top 10% of players. That doesn't however mean every run of the mil player should get the best gear (just like in PvE)

    IMO the best PvP gear should come from rated PvP, all rated PvP. So like in WoW if you where 2200 rated in 2v2 you got no gear because they didn't consider that competitive. Even though it was ranked. It forced players to play what Bliz though was the "best" content rather than letting players play competitively in their favorite PvP type.

    Off-topic so I'll go back to tanks.

    Rift and RS didn't have a real rating system (RS does but no one cares about it they just care about staking gold)
    But tanks in both where very competitive. In runescape right now a tank build is border line impossible to beat as a DPS in their arenas.

    In wow there biggest issue is they put to much weight on their healers. In a perfect world DPS should provide the damage, tanks should prevent the damage, and healers should heal the damage. This goes for PvP and PvE. But in WoW healers take the role of preventing and healing damage. This leaves no room for tanks because if they buff tank's ability to reduce the damage then nothing in WoW would die and tank/healer teams would be OP. If they boost the damage of tanks (which they have tried and are the cases when tanks got OP but that typically lasted only 1 patch at a time at most and could be countered) then tanks get too OP because they are so hard to kill and can kill you quickly.

    In my opinion they should reduce the damage prevention of healers and boost it to tanks (probably through CC which tanks in WoW do lack)

    I'll leave this post with a few final notes.
    Being competitive in PvP doesn't mean being competitive in all forms of PvP.
    Healers being so dominate in PvP was WoW's issue more than tanks it made sure there was no room to buff tanks to the proper amount with heavily unbalancing the game.
    Support roles like tank and healers will always have problems being competitive in 1v1 because they focus on being strong in a team not alone. The only reason healers were too strong in 2v2 is because they had all the healing a healer should bring and all the prevention a tank should bring. Making having a healer/DPS more like have 3 players which is why Heals/DPS ahve dominated 2v2 most seasons.
    All this said tanks still had an important role in certain types of PvP in WoW. My first post actually made this pretty clear when I said they don't shine directly in the heat of the fight but do help in objective portion of the game.
    I didn't do arenas to seriously my highest rating there was 1800-ish it wasn't really what I found fun so I can't really talk about what did and didn't work there. #Someoctogladwillcomeinandsayimwronganddemandtoknowmyarenaratingsojustputitoutthere
    #myfinalnoteswherereallylong
    I'm going to make a double post because my last few post have been about other games and I want to talk about what I'd like to see in Wildstar and ignore what other games have done. Ultimately I don't care if other MMOs have good tanks or not because I don't play those anymore.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    #Okebutyoudidnotansweredmyproblempart

    (Oke but you didn't answered my problem part :D)

    I'm really curious as to how you look at this? Since arena is a step between BG and Warplots, so I do hope tanks will be a bit more viable in arena to make the transission less of a pain.
  13. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Extatica already replied to your post making the point that he/she was asking about Arenas in general, but just to address these points and clarify my stance. I've already noted this several times in this thread already, but I disagree on a few things:

    1)Tanks primary role is to take lots of damage - NO. Tanks in PvE do not always take lots of damage and even standard sword and board tanks who CAN take a lot of damage don't have that as their primary role in a fight. It is a sometimes but not always necessary byproduct of their primary role. Various games have used the evasion tank in which the class focuses on taking as little damage as possible (and we already know that Carbine will do this with the Stalker so it's important to define what a tanks role actually is). A tanks primary role in any scenario, is to control the target and keep it's attention.

    2)As mentioned, the OP was asking primarily about arena PvP where there are no real objectives for a tank to focus on, so your ideas of a tank would not work there. But my argument is that past games have given them a role in Arenas and with the way Wildstar is being designed, it looks like they may have a similar place here. Going along with number 1, a tank's primary role is to control the target and keep it's attention. Given the proper tools (leashes/pulls, healing/damage debuffs, stuns, knockdowns, protection buffs, dashes, etc.) they can either help to set up burst, or save a healer or squishy from dying, or prevent a guy at low HP from getting away, or stick on one target for the duration of the fight to distract/annoy/etc. They can force themselves to be dealt with in other ways while providing the proper supportive role that a tank should provide.

    It's most definitely possible, it's just up to Carbine to get it right. Unfortunately, many games did not get it right and a lot of players have a very narrow minded and specific view of what a tanks role is, how they can play, what the possibilities are, etc. due to the way many tab target games have worked. Time to branch out a bit for many people here and see what else has been done, and what else is possible - clearly from the 2nd poster's quote, Carbine is already thinking that way. Think outside your tiny tab-target box folks. Tanks are more than just meat shields in PvE and PvP and once you start to really think what they do for a team you'll see there are definitely possibilities.
  14. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    The current list of Wildstars tanks abilities is a great start.
    "Taunt: If a Tank taunts an enemy, the enemy will deal reduced damage to everyone but the Tank that taunted."
    This is a good ability but actually if you think about it would scale poorly in large groups. If you taunt 1 player and you are doing 10v10 or 40v40 that leaves 9 or 39 players unchecked by you.
    But a great ability for 2v2 and other small groups

    I suggest a few other abilities (each of which would take a slot on your limited action set)

    Pro-Tech-ion: Protect an ally reducing all damage they take by x amount per hit
    Why? this ability scales great in large battles, the x should be pretty low it should have a focus on protecting the ally against a large group making it hard for you opponents to do a quick swap and bursting down your best friend.

    Meat shield: (toggled or a decent duration) X amount of all damage taken by all nearby allies is taken by you instead.
    This should be a pretty decent amount it is a risky ability designed to provide immediate protection to your allies but can make you very likely to become the primary targets of everyone in the area. The mixture of being the primary target and taking residual damage would offer some high-risk high-reward style play. It wouldn't be great in small groups like taunt will be and it would get you killed in very large groups like warfronts very quickly but be great at moderate sized groups.

    Share-a-shield program: Targeted allies gets x% of your defensive stats for y duration.
    Pretty strait forward. A great damage reduction for your team mate.

    How about some abilities that boost the tanks defense as an individual:

    Organic battery: Drop to 1 HP and completely refill your shield.
    Kind of like a last stand ability but your own reaction and judgment is what will make it great. Passive talents take stop a killing blow are ok but they aren't reactive. This could save a match, get low on health? Pop this and coast off your shield for awhile while you get healed up. It could also wreck you if you use it at the wrong time.


    Shield sucker: Use an emp to damage the shields of targeted enemies and restore that amount to your shield.
    A ability that does some moderate AoE damage and helps restore yours.


    Ultimately to me a fun and competitive tank in PvP wouldn't be about forcing players to deal with you first but rather helping recuce the damage you team takes and helping you survive much better than anyone else. It would make you great in the thick of battle and on taking objectives. Maybe better at one than the other depending on how you build you limited action set. Maybe a lot of abilities that make you great at objectives but taking them makes you less annoying in that actual fighting and maybe a lots of abilities that make you a priority target much like healers are but make you not so great at objective running.
  15. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I've been here a long time, and I knew that post of Carbine (since I made a compilation thread about all info from that AAMA).

    But to me it only shows they have the right role of a PvP tank in mind! In battlegrounds!

    For Arena I can see them be usefull in 5v5, and to some extend 3v3. But I fear that a settup of 2 dps + healer will still be far superior then that of a tank/healer/dps.

    As for 2v2....I don't see the tank in there at all (--> shows the settup I think has the most chance).

    Going off by settups alone in 2v2:
    healer + tank = no damage to kill off a healer + dps
    -> Tank + tank = not enough damage, I only think they have a chance vs the dps/dps settup
    --> dps + tank = the likeliest possibility...but I still think dps + dps would win vs this settup

    As for 3v3, going off by settups alone:
    Tank + tank + tank = not enough dmg, they are more annoying then really that strong
    --> Healer + tank + dps = I think this would be the best option, enough dmg, good survivability etc.
    -> Dps + dps + tank = can work, has some nice dmg and the tank can help the DPS survive a bit longer, although I think the healer/tank/dps would win vs this settup.
    Tank + tank + healer = really annoying group to kill but they lack some serious dmg.
    Tank + healer + healer = will they even die at all? But killing others? Mayby only vs a team without a healer

    This is how I see it.

    5v5 is ofcourse even better. So will I (PvP tank) be forced into 5v5 arena, or will 3v3 be an option aswell?
    I personally don't like 5v5 very much, I prefer 3v3 above all others, and then 2v2.

    As for the 2v2....I do think it's something that I want, but the chance can be small...
  16. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Reducing the damage your team takes is only a small part of what a tank can and should be doing. Like I said there are many more ways to be a tank in PvP and just like PvE, a tank does more than just take damage (and in some cases they focus on trying to take none at all). But if you're only role is to take a lot of damage, what then are you going to do in Arenas when you have no objectives to sit on? How will you help out your team then? What will you do when your not throwing a long CD protection buff on your team - fights will last much longer than one skill, so what else can you offer your team outside of that?

    Whether you like it or not the job of a tank in PvE is to piss off the mobs and make them deal with the tank, so he can allow his team to do their jobs without risk of dying. The tank is focused on controlling the mob. The same goes for PvP. Sure, part of that control involves protective buffs and skills, but that is only a small part of the equation (and if you play a stalker tank you're going to want to take as little damage as possible, so what would a stalker tank do in PvP in your view if he's not a meat shield??). If you don't like controlling things and making yourself the focus of their attention in an attempt to support your team and allow them to do their jobs unharmed, you may not be playing the right role. If all you want to do is protect and nothing else, then you may want to play a healer (although get used to a lot of unwanted attention).

    Honestly I'm not concerned with 2v2's. I don't think you can really balance something so small. But for 3's I do think a tank has a place. As I said before, they have done well in traditional 3's in some past games, but Carbine is not even doing traditional Arenas. They will give each team a set number of rezzes to use up before the match is over and that changes the strategies a bit. I've said numerous times the various ways a tank can contribute if given the right toolset so I won't repeat myself. I think this makes them valuable enough.
  17. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    "IMO the best PvP gear should come from rated PvP, all rated PvP. So like in WoW if you where 2200 rated in 2v2 you got no gear because they didn't consider that competitive. Even though it was ranked. It forced players to play what Bliz though was the "best" content rather than letting players play competitively in their favorite PvP type."

    I'll translate this more directly to W*: Warplots should give PvP gear just the same as arenas. Carbine shouldn't pick which one is "better" and give that the best gear. PvP is competitive in groups small and large and should both be treated as such. So you should be IMO be able to gear up from both provided you have the baseline PvP gear from unrated content.

    Edit:
    Also I misunderstood you thinking you that you where worries about not being able to do rated content at all. There are games where tanks do great in small groups. In RS as mentioned before and as a riftstalker in Rift. Both are great for fighting or objectives.
    WoW's tanks had a serious deficit in the fighting portion but not a great as people thing. It came mostly from Bliz not wanting to make tanks take part of the role of healers. I hope wildstar remedies that.

    1)Tanks primary role is to take lots of damage - NO. Tanks in PvE do not always take lots of damage and even standard sword and board tanks who CAN take a lot of damage don't have that as their primary role in a fight. It is a sometimes but not always necessary byproduct of their primary role. Various games have used the evasion tank in which the class focuses on taking as little damage as possible (and we already know that Carbine will do this with the Stalker so it's important to define what a tanks role actually is). A tanks primary role in any scenario, is to control the target and keep it's attention.
    Again we agree here mostly you took my statement a little more literally than I intended. It was my fault it didn't make it clear. Weather they take the damage or avoid by evasion or take it at a mitigated rate from armor they are there to soak damage in whatever way they can so that you allies don't take it.

    2)As mentioned, the OP was asking primarily about arena PvP where there are no real objectives for a tank to focus on, so your ideas of a tank would not work there. But my argument is that past games have given them a role in Arenas and with the way Wildstar is being designed, it looks like they may have a similar place here. Going along with number 1, a tank's primary role is to control the target and keep it's attention. Given the proper tools (leashes/pulls, healing/damage debuffs, stuns, knockdowns, protection buffs, dashes, etc.) they can either help to set up burst, or save a healer or squishy from dying, or prevent a guy at low HP from getting away, or stick on one target for the duration of the fight to distract/annoy/etc. They can force themselves to be dealt with in other ways while providing the proper supportive role that a tank should provide.

    I'll start over with less real world examples so they don't clog up my point. My original point was a little off-topic. which I should have mentioned at the start.

    I had misunderstood the OP thinking he was worried about not being considered in all rated PvP and was worried he be banished to just doing unrated content. That was also my fault
    Tanks aren't unappreciated in the games I have played they have a certain role they fill, one that works best with larger groups, a class built to support a team which the way most tanks have been made is not going to shine in small groups. I think a tanks role should be preventing damage to the team but not physically stopping you from choosing to pick another target hence the need for moderate CC. This is a difference in the role I think someone should play. I think a tanks primary role should be reducing the damage your team takes. Controlling the enemy should come second to that.


    It's most definitely possible, it's just up to Carbine to get it right. Unfortunately, many games did not get it right and a lot of players have a very narrow minded and specific view of what a tanks role is, how they can play, what the possibilities are, etc. due to the way many tab target games have worked. Time to branch out a bit for many people here and see what else has been done, and what else is possible - clearly from the 2nd poster's quote, Carbine is already thinking that way. Think outside your tiny tab-target box folks. Tanks are more than just meat shields in PvE and PvP and once you start to really think what they do for a team you'll see there are definitely possibilities.

    I'm not thinking in my tiny tab-targeting box. I just don't think tanks should just be a giant CC machine. I'm sorry that just doesn't sound compelling and doesn't fit the role of "tank" it fits the role of a frost mage or sub rogue in WoW. You can play those CC god classes right now but they don't feel like playing a tank.
    It just feels like chain CCing. Tanking is about protecting, this can be done with CC's but that artificially forces a player to fight you. It be much more compelling if players picked to fight you just like how they choose to focus healers now because your support abilities are extremely good at protecting you friends.
  18. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not talking about chain CCing people (I also disagree that a tank's primary role is soaking damage but I already addressed that pretty clearly I think).... I feel like you just have no idea what I'm trying to say so I'll just give up. Maybe you're the type that needs to see it in action to get it.

    Here's an old video from a tank PoV in 3's in TERA. I'll leave you with this, too tired to explain what's going on though lol.

  19. ratthing

    ratthing New Cupcake

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    I prefer survivability over burst as a play style, so if they are viable then why not.

    I can see a tanky classes usefulness in BG's and WP's but more skeptical regarding Arena.
  20. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    In TERA, tanks could not be ignored. It's what they excelled at was being a royal pain in the ass.
    This is vague what do you mean “pain in the ass”


    Tanks shouldn't do a lot of damage
    We agree they shouldn't be high in damage.

    but they can and should play a similar role that they do in PvE - force the target to deal with them
    This is only one side of their multi-side coin. My arms warrior still had access to his taunt ability which could force a raid boss to “deal” with him but he be quickly dealt with if he couldn't take, absorb, and evade damage. In fact if you had no one in your group that could do this you would quickly find that you'd be dealt with quite fast


    In PvP they can do this via various means, some of which Carbine has already thought of - pulls/leashes, healing/damage debuffs, etc. - but they can only do that if they're given the ability to not just be CC'd and ignored

    Every class can be CC in the sort of game I'm talking about I assume that you don't mean tanks should be immune to CC. So what to you mean “ability to not just be CC'd”
    Should my rogue be unable to just be CC'd? CCing my rogue makes him pointless too.
    the ignoring portion of tanks in WoW comes from the fact that they don't bring much to a PvP group but the ability to be hit on stay alive.

    his primary role of forcing a target to deal with him

    Again I can taunt on an Arms warrior if he has no defense he will get destroyed and be worthless.

    Tanks primary role is to take lots of damage - NO.

    Of course I didn't mean they should stand in fire because their role is to take lots of damage I meant they are there to take the damage that must be taken and that others in the group simply can not take. To survive what must be survived but that others simply cannot.
    Doesn't matter if they soak this damage by having a large health pool, evading attacks, taking a lower % of damage through armor. As long as that damage doesn't hit others in the group and you don't die then you are good to go.

    A tanks primary role in any scenario, is to control the target and keep it's attention.

    To keep the targets attention certainly, but not to control. Can they control the target? Certainly.
    Do they need this amount of control to be competitive? No. So lets get off WoW and talk about RS which has tanking abilities in its game most of which center around reducing the damage they take and the damage their friends take. They have a typical level of CC (one stun) just like most the other combat roles in the game (with the exception of the mage which has roots too.) Is W* going to work like RS? Definitely not runescape focuses very little on movement and more on ability usage. Obviously if W* will have the level of movement then tanks will need more control abilities to deal with this.

    Reducing the damage your team takes is only a small part of what a tank can and should be doing.
    Certainly they should also be hurting the enemy to an extent keeping their health up.

    a tank does more than just take damage (and in some cases they focus on trying to take none at all)
    Again certainly I'm not saying you should maximize the damage you take but rather you should take as much of the damage that you which can not be avoided by the raid. So here are some example of damage you don't/can't want to take: AoEs than can be avoided and residual damage dealt to the raid.
    But if you're only role is to take a lot of damage, what then are you going to do in Arenas when you have no objectives to sit on?
    Again primary role, as I have mentioned 2 million times to you I think a robust defense should come first THEN attention holding abilities, CC, and damage dealt.

    What will you do when your not throwing a long CD protection buff on your team - fights will last much longer than one skill, so what else can you offer your team outside of that?

    Who says they should have a long CD? My objection is that currently tanks offer too little protection to their group. It makes playing them feel less like playing a tank and more like playing an undergeared DPS. The problem is that everything a tank can do to protect their group has a long CD in current games but healers don't have this issue. Heals don't have 3 minute long CDs this is like saying what will a healer do when their heals are on CD. The ideal would seem absurd that healers would run out of heals in course of a normal fight. But even in games where they do - they don't run out of heals and then become immune to CC, set up strong combos, and be a pain in the ass, typically when they run out of these abilities it is the fault of the player at the keyboard and it is when the opposing team can capitalize on advantage and get that victory.

    Whether you like it or not the job of a tank in PvE is to piss off the mobs and make them deal with the tank, so he can allow his team to do their jobs without risk of dying.

    I agree with this in the raiding context. In pvp forcing players to kill one player in particular artificially is <REDACTED> from a game play perspective. Having to take the role of a mentally disabled raid boss that can't see that if he stopped hitting the guy with a shield and hit the guy with a rod would be frustrating and most importantly NOT fun. Right now in most games people already prioritize certain targets. Which target do they most often choose? The healer. Why? Not because the healer “forces” you to deal with them but rather because if you leave a healer unchecked you will not go any where in a fight.

    (and if you play a stalker tank you're going to want to take as little damage as possible, so what would a stalker tank do in PvP in your view if he's not a meat shield??)

    I feel like I should link you a video of player running a riftstalker. They are evasion heavy highly mobile tanks that are extremely common to see in PvP. They often get mass targeted because they have some decent CC and can't be killed by just 1 player and if left unchecked they will ware your team down.

    If all you want to do is protect and nothing else, then you may want to play a healer (although get used to a lot of unwanted attention).
    TA-DA!!!! Here we are again there are ways to make someone the center of attention that don't involve making them control freaks. You can also make them the center of attention and make them keep that feeling of being a tank with out making them feel like rogues with a buffed evasion rate.

    I'm not talking about chain CCing people (I also disagree that a tank's primary role is soaking damage but I already addressed that pretty clearly I think)..

    I think they should do both and mix in a little damage in there too. I'm guessing you agree with this. If you think tanks should do something aside from soak damage, deal limited damage, and control the enemy then please tell me what it is you think they should be doing?

    Lets inspect this in respect to a limited action set. You have 6 (ignore the race and path ability)
    You will probably have a large choice in which abilities you put on you bar.
    You could fill it all with DPS moves and play like a glass cannon. You could take some of those attack moves out and drop in some CC. Now you play more like a DPS with a little CC. Pretty simple.
    You could then use all CC abilities and lean on just you weapon swing. Would this make you feel like a tank? Probably not. Maybe you remove a CC and put in debuff that help you allies kill someone. Does this make you feel like a tank? No. What if you mix these thing debuff and CC? Would this make you feel like a tank? No. What if you added in some defensive abilities maybe taunt and then some CC and a debuff. Would this make you feel like a tank? A little more than the other set ups but not very much. If you wanted to feel like a tank you'd need a mix of something like a CC, a taunt, a debuff, and a few defensive abilities to really feel like a tank. Part of what gives a player that tank feeling is the ability to survive what others can't and offering that protection to their group. If you take everything that makes playing a tank feel like playing tank then why call it a tank? Why not rename it? A control tank, and off tank, a hybrid tank.
    Then leave the actual full-fledged I can take all you beating on me to tanks.
    This is why I think we agree almost completely you just won't see it. When I talk about “tank” I mean traditional tank. Then you say tanks can be so much more. I agree. But just calling a hybrid a tank doesn't make it feel like tank. You can call it a tank if you want but it will not feel like one.



    Making a class that feels like a traditional tank viable in arenas is possible. But it would have to be defense oriented and their abilities would have to not be watered down just because a healer is suppose to provide the group its survivability. Healers get focused for that reason. If you made class that played like tank but made it's traditional tank abilities more widespread and with better up time you would find players prioritizing tanks player because even though they are hard to kill bring them down would be the first step to beating the rest of the team.



    We seem to agree on almost everything but every time I post anything you come in and disagree with me.
    The only thing we really disagree on is that I think survival is the most import thing to a tank and you think their ability to hold attention is their top priority.
    Then we both think a competitive tank would play more to those strengths that we see. I personally hope Carbine offers both options because while I want my tank to feel like giant <REDACTED>ing wall that can't be moved but also can't pack much of a punch I understand that others don't feel that way. I also don't feel like calling something that primary goal is to harass and hold attention a tank makes it a tank. I'd call it a hybrid.
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