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The difficulty of WildStar

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Firmitas, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Firmitas

    Firmitas New Cupcake

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    Only discussing the PvE part of the game here.

    After reading the thread, What made WoW fun:
    http://www.wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/what-made-wow-fun.1060/

    and referring to the video, The Problem in the Mists (of Pandaria):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

    I would say my biggest concern about this game is the adventure you take on and the difficulty and learning curve that comes with it.
    About the adventure, its all up to Carbine, and I think, they are going to do the best they can with it.

    Though about the difficulty of the game, I would like to share my thoughts, and listen to yours.

    Whats being said is this video is also taken up in the thread, What made WoW fun. Which is the difficulty of the game, having that distance goal to move towards, that great achievement to work for. Which motivates you to get better, to keep farming, to take on harder and harder tasks, and in the end, having a damn lot of FUN!

    I'm not arguing that games doesn't need to change and develop, of course they do. But I do not always think that the majority of players knows what is the best to have a great game, (me included).
    With this I mean the example shown quite clear in the video, The Problem in the Mist. Of course everyone want to see that end game content in every game, isn't that what makes the players play?
    Making it available to everyone, even if that is what the players want, takes away that one goal, that a lot of players is motivated by to reach.

    Connected to this I am also concerned about normal difficulty of the game.
    For example I feel that a lot of mmo's on the market today is mostly about farming, (either easy killable mobs or running past every mob to gather that important mineral) get strong and defeat a hard boss.
    A game, even if its not a mmo, which I'd like to refer to here is Dark Souls. Which have in my opinion applied the learning curve of the game in a great way. (Though it has in some parts taking it to the extremes). What they have done great:
    In First place of making the game “easier” and to “farm” comes your knowledge about the enemies, knowledge about your play style and about the environment.
    In second place comes your gear and level.
    This is the opposite from normal mmo's, at least what I've seen (WoW, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Rift, SWTOR etc). But then of course, I'm not EVER stating that gear and level shouldn't to a different, it should.
    Even if you fight a low level, weak mob with your guard down, you could still be killed if not being alert. Which makes every fight count, and to compensate you earn a bit more xp for every mob, instead of just nuking tens of mobs, regain your mana and repeat.

    With this said, the more you learn, the more you develop as a player, the easier the game gets, instead of blindly be determent of your gear and level.

    I'm not saying I want a super hard game that only a few can enjoy, just trying to state the differences between and game you need to play with your head, and a game you can play while watching TV.

    What do you guys feel about the difficulty of games today, and how would you like to see WildStar?

    I apologizes for any misspellings and bad English in advance.
  2. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Nice post, and I'm only partway through the video so I'll keep my thoughts concise. So far, I agree with what this guy is saying. So what if only 1% of the playerbase saw Naxxramus? It was there as a goal for me to achieve. My guild had just beaten BWL when TBC came out and changed the landscape forever.

    The reason I started playing WoW was because I saw a friend raiding in MC. My entire leveling experience was so that I could get up to 60 and raid in that dungeon. I waited for 4 or 5 months (I leveled slowly because I took a break) before I got to experience the reason why I started playing WoW. This journey of having a goal to focus on made the game infinitely more enjoyable than when I played SWG (where I had no purpose).

    Having a difficulty curve requires that I put in time to achieve a goal. Without the difficulty curve, I lose interest because I can already beat the goal. I want to work at something. This reminds me of a quote by Jacob Riis:

    I want to have a goal in WildStar. I just hope that the goal will take more work than a single hammer stroke on Nexus.
  3. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Something to add to the discussion:

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  4. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    While I was reading what you wrote I was wondering if you are suggesting something like the level scaling like in GW2. if you are lvl 80 in a starting zone you can still get killed my mobs there because you are level scaled down to that zones max level which is like 4-6 or something. Granted you are going to be half afk to achieve that since you are still level 80 and you have max level gear and build.
  5. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I fully agree with the guy on the Youtube MoP video. I still remember entering MC for the very first time. I was so excited for it. Then we wiped many times on the first trash pack ... that really motivated me to get better at the game, learn my class better. And there were no tactics available, you all had to figure it out yourselfs.
  6. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Blizzard did the biggest mistake in Mmo's history, added several difficulties on the same content, by doing that took a portion of challenge out of the game.

    Did you wonder why they did that? who did they try to please?

    The obvious answer someone might say is the casual people, but that's the wrong answer, they implemented multiple difficulties to satisfy people that weren't able due to their skill to see the content.

    Lets not confusing casual players with unskilled players, it is a mistake, a casual player can be equally skilled or even better than a hardcore player, it's just that the skilled casual gamer does not have much time to play, so it is normal that his progress will be a bit slower than the guy that is skilled and hardcore.

    It is perfectly normal a group of skilled hardcore players to experience every content first, followed by a group of casual skilled players, thats how it is, thats how it should be.

    The reward for this, it is not the loot, very few true gamers care for the loot (i am not saying that they don't care) its self. They care to differentiate them selves for the rest, they want to see that their effort worth something, they want real and unique challenge.

    By adding different difficulties its like saying to people that try more than the rest, your only reward is going to be the loot, oh and btw, once you cleared the normal mode (which is very easy) go experience the same content again, but the bosses will hit a bit harder...

    Additionally to the less skilled players, you say, Oh you dont have the skill to easily clear that conent? no worries go on a supper easy mode and it is like a walk in the park... that's insulting if you ask me.

    If a group of players didn't manage to experience the full content fast, means that they need to try more... Players should adjust to the world, and not World to the players.

    I am not saying that every instance should be extremely challenging, all i am saying is that some content should be very challenging, on which not everyone will be able to progress unless put some more effort to improve (at its own pace)

    People love challenge, they play the game cause of the challenge, even if they don't know it. I don't know many people that enjoy a game that offers zero challenge... and even if they do, it does not keep them occupied for long....

    I just hope wildstar will bring the Mmo where it was in the past (WoW vanilla days)

    P.s Please don't get me wrong, i am not elitist or something, i just want challenge to what i am doing, and frankly i am not in position to be elitist or anything similar.

    Always Friendly
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  7. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    "Always Friendly"

    As in Friendly the undead from Khadgar server in WoW?
  8. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I partly agree with this. If we talk about the Raid Finder (LFR) this isn't the case. The LFR was implemented to let a lot more players see the actual raid content, not only because of people weren't skilled enough. The reason LFR is so dumped down is because you can't execute proper tactics with a bunch of strangers. I still believe most people miss out on the real raid experience.

    Which is okay. I said many times before in other threads, if only 1% of people see a particular part of the game, that's fine! You don't have to see 100% of a game to enjoy playing it.

    Great example, EVE Online. Totally agreeing with this.
    Recruiter likes this.
  9. Kahlan

    Kahlan Guest

    I was looking forward to SWTOR with the eager eyes of a child on Christmas morning, and the sheer lack of difficult content made me lose interest entirely. Not only was the content not difficult, the raids were so riddled with bugs that encounters became unbearable to play. Add to this, the fact that my guild beat SOA within the first month or so and because the encounter was bugged he dropped no loot. All of us contacted EA and we all got the same response, something to the affect of, "We're sorry this happened and we're constantly working to improve the game, but we cannot distribute the loot items." So, bad raid difficulty, buggy raids, and crappy customer service will make me leave a game just as quickly as I entered it.
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  10. Firmitas

    Firmitas New Cupcake

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    I wouldn't prefer level scaling no, for example:
    Say you meet a mob who is lvl 5 and you are lvl 30 unarmored, if the mob puts a sword through your guts once or twice, yes you should die. Though, say you wear armor then this weak lvl 5 mob might not be strong enough to penetrate this armor.

    Of course this would be quite hard to implement all the way, but something that I enjoy with games is when each fight with a monster gives a chance to improvement. And if you are “lacy” and not moving from that special attack or what it might be, you die!
    So instead of just running around in the world bursting down monster after monster, you actually have to Fight them. So learning different monsters abilities and attack will help your progress more than just gearing up.

    Something similar to this actually came up in WoW with the MoP expansion. They added several Elite mobs within the new arena where some of them were a little bit harder to defeat. Which made it fun to fight them alone only for the challange, at least before you outgeard them...
  11. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    But wouldn't that mob one shot an equivient level player?
    That mob sounds like a mob that is champion level that can only be killed by a group at that level and you may be able to solo later on.
  12. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

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    I too don't like lvl scaling. Nothing like rolling into a lower zone and owning everything and everyone. Damn, noobs get out of my way
  13. SDR

    SDR Cupcake

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    I'd rather have 1 fight of 60 seconds than 60 fights of 1 second.
    Strong mobs that take a while to kill is more fun imo.
  14. Vhiral

    Vhiral Cupcake-About-Town

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    My personal preference on the matter is that I like a strong curve in the game, in difficulty and strategy. I love that feeling when I struggle with something, a mob or a boss, or whatever. Then I finally overcome that problem. Those kinds of things really show that the player is learning how to play the game, and is improving in it.
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  15. Morggause

    Morggause Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm really against the idea of level scaling, I've played GW2, the level scaling was fun at start, but after a while it lose all interest, of course "all the game is challenging blabla" but that also lower the fact that you got stronger, in Guildwars i have personnaly felt like i was the same level 80 as i was level 1 despite the time played, the armor, etc.

    For pve content (dungeon, group) i do agree with most of what you all said, to be totally honest, if they copy the raid/dungeon system of WoW i would have completely no problem with that (prior Cata at least i have some trouble with that same loot for 10 & 25), I played WoW for so long because i enjoy raiding, i enjoy overcoming the challenge boss are, and i enjoy doing it in a group (~25 is good not more if you listen to me Devs)

    The major issue in WoW i have felt was the scaling between expansion, i personally think they should have been smoother, but the "scaling" inside the raids were good. Theres not much more difficulty between raids tho, for someone new to the game imo Karazhan is going to be almost as hard as Bt, Fireland or w/e. but we don't need i think difficulty scaling from raid to raid, only from boss to boss inside those raids / dungeons.

    When you wander in low level zone with your best mount and start showing off to new player, that feeling !

    And actually it's what made me going further and further in WoW, seiing all those high level with their shiny armor, i was always like "I want this armor, and this weapon, and this mount" :D
  16. Wreck

    Wreck Cupcake-About-Town

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    Some really excellent points have been made in this thread already, like when Jarnod said that he started playing WoW because he saw his friend raiding MC and his whole leveling journey was to get to that point, I had the same experience but only it was the ZG raid that I saw. I'm not saying the the leveling experience should only be a means to raiding, it should be an enjoyable and memorable experience. Also when Recruiter stated that the players should adjust to the world and not the world to the players.

    As I've stated in another thread, as a competitive player, I want to have a set of goals, some can be achieved in days, some in weeks, and some in months. I always need to have that shiny epic that I soooo want to get.

    With LFR in WoW, the value of epic item dropped to "Free epics! Come get your free epics here!". It just wasn't that exciting to get an epic because there are 3 versions of epic per item and not to mention the 2 item-level upgrades introduced in 5.1.

    What's truly important is to have a balanced learning curve for raids and a leaner but still existent learning curve for questing mobs that are always a tedious job and can be done on autopilot. Easy to learn, Hard to master. That's the approach I think works best.
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  17. Morggause

    Morggause Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have to disagree with that, if you haven't yet you should see the rush on loot at High-level, w/e the game is, it's as said Wreck what make us shinny and all, of course "true gamers" as you call them stand for their achievement too, but the loot is the primary source of brag (if that's the word?) it's "less" important on a high-skill player because he can do what a player less good at the game with less stats, but yet

    I agree there that high-end loot should never be given freely or almost freely, but mainly it shouldnt have the same skin, the fact that they gave LFR i can understand that, i used it too to gear alt because it was fast and cheap, but the main problem imo was that the stuff as the exact same skin (apart from the color) when i randomly run in circle in town (we all do that don't look at me like this) i like to know that im' being noticed because i have that super-ultra gear, but people can notice this only by the look you don't inspect eveybody you see, if you give someone else the same looking gear for a quest reward as i've spent hours of raiding to get it well thats just horrible...

    I don't say that the skin means everything but when in game almost eveybody know what top armour look like, it's like a title, in better because this thing is purple.
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  18. Firmitas

    Firmitas New Cupcake

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    Say that mob has an ability to drop a big rock on which takes three seconds to lift up, if you are standing still you die, even if you are 30 lvls above, but if you move away you will be fine.
    Same with the example with sword and no armour, if you are equal lvl you would need to parry, block and move away from that lethal swing. While at high lvl with armour, the armour would withstand that hit. But if you were a cloth bearer and let it hit you, you would still die.
    I do admit that it would not be working to do this all the way between lvl 1 and 50. But maybe between 10 lvls?

    Over all, this guy puts it quite good.
    Exactly where I want to get! A bit more “realistic” game.

    Couldn't agree more with these statements.

    En excellent video from Black Wolf about Depth vs Complexity.
    This is the hard part about scaling, I'd say overall I want it more and more complex over time, the higher level you get, the further you get in raids and so on, the more complex the game gets. Which usually the case is, more or less. Though it is the really complex games I find fun in the long run.
  19. Vhiral

    Vhiral Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really like this statement, it is so disheartening to be wearing your +10 Hat of Butt-Kicking, that your guild struggled to beat the boss to get for weeks, or mabye even months. Then to see someone with +1 Hat of Mediocre Butt-Kicking. That looks exactly the same, that they picked up in a easy mode LFR. I'm not saying LFR is a bad idea, but I think the rewards should look different. So those who worked hard, can be seen by others at a glance and be able to recognize what they have accomplished. This effect could also possibly inspire other players, or newer players too. Because they want to go beat that end game boss also to get their cool hat or pants.
  20. Sharkee

    Sharkee Cupcake

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    For me, I hope that it will scale from meh to oh my god this is impossible!!!
    Well you may ask why? And the answer is simple - the feel of accomplishment. Yes you can also achieve it in a virtual world, not just the real one. The Burning Crusade in WoW, was the most memorable experience to date, because of so many little reasons. For example I remember, how people looked with amazement, when I was pulling 900+dps in heroics, before entering BT(yes back then it was a very big deal), and just for that, when they saw how i was trying my best with what i had, and proved that i'm worth my salt, I got accepted in a guild called "Sheep it", which i probably shall never forget and the people that i raided with. It was an incredible experience and journey combined.
    But that sadly is the end for when i can reminisce in that glorious past, for after TBC i never felt the challenge again...it was gone and nowhere to be found. And i lost interest in the game,raids became tedious and boring/repetitive. If it weren't for my bro, i'd probably would have dodged 50% of them, because i was so bored with the content that i have seen and done a thousand times. It became a chore and not something that i waited to do.
    And the gear, back then it meant something and people in cities gathered around you and drooled all over your shiny stuff. If you had epics, you were EPIC. Same goes for mounts, back then they cost 1000g, and it was SO MUCH CASH!!! All these things made you feel special, you felt that bit of pride and i enjoyed being whispered by random people. And that unfortunately is also long gone, now towns are filled with nothing but purple pixels and you feel no more special than the lvl 10 character next to you, because you know, that he probably has another 1358195 alts geared to teeth, just because he can do it and it takes little to no effort to achieve it.

    I want Wildstar to bring us that sense of wonder and mystique back to the game, for when you gaze upon a castle, cave, dungeon, knowing what may await you inside, but also realizing that if you step in, you will get eaten without spice, you feel that tiny bit of lust pump up in your gut and you can think to yourself "I will get to see what's really happening in there some day"
    I want to feel challenged and see if i am worth the things what Wildstar can offer to me

    Sharkee

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