1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

The difficulty of WildStar

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Firmitas, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Yeah, that is why I think this periodic ranking Wildstar seem to be intend on could be interesting - also because they are swapping up the instance content as part of it.

    Gear check bosses / gatekeepers are fun :-D
    Loveless likes this.
  2. Loveless

    Loveless Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm hoping the game overall won't be the tank'n'spank hokey pokey, so raid difficulty will fall back to wrangling ten+ human players to pay attention for an hour or so ;)
  3. FluidD

    FluidD Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    PA
    I hope its harder, not TBC hard, but not Wotlk easy... somewhere in the middle. I dont need a boss to take 5 months to beat... 1-2 months tho on a last boss of a big raid? That sounds fine to me as long as the rest of the raid is also kind of hard (maybe a month to figure out the rest of the fights, so in total 2-3 months for good players to complete a raid fully one time, maybe another month or two to get gear farmed)
    I def do not want a raid to take a week, anything less then 2 months to me, just based off my past raiding experiences, is a joke.
    Dpz likes this.
  4. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    388
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    UK
    For me personally, it depends on the other player. if someone is polite and willing to learn then I'll go out of my way to help them as it's such a rarity these days.

    If I'm grouped with someone and they seem to be struggling in an area I'm familiar with then I'll try to help. I have learned to be very careful in phrasing and to ask in whispers as a lot of people are hyper-sensitive to anything they perceive as criticism (especially if it's typed in group chat).
    In SWTOR on a healer alt I was tanking a lot of the mobs, I noticed the tank was in a dps stance so I chucked him a whisper saying 'Have you tried using Soresu form at all?'. Turns out he was new to MMO's and this was his first try at tanking so I ended up running through some things with him and some advice on gear when he asked. He tanked the rest of the instance like a pro - he'd read up on basic tanking but just needed the tanking 'stance' explaining and the odd pointer. Was a true pleasure to heal the run.

    If they're like the tank I had on another run who ran ahead of the group, tried to take an elevator that wasn't there and promptly fell to his death before typing in caps "RES ME NOOB" then I'm somewhat less likely to bother trying to be helpful :p

    As to it being the developers responsibility I'd say the developers should try to make content easily accessible ie a LFG system but if a class can fulfill multiple roles do NOT have them all highlighted by default like SWTOR did - I healed sooo many levelling dungeon runs with no tank due to the default selections and while it made it interesting for me I can't imagine it being fun for first time players who don't realise the problem.
    Aside from that the onus is on the players to know their classes/roles well enough to handle the content (they should have had some solo play before they get to the first instance). Basics should be fine for the first instance anyway as it is usually before people have access to all their skills etc and tends to be easier than later content.
    SiegaPlays and Elthic like this.
  5. Embermouth

    Embermouth Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I remember playing WoW for over 6 years. How vanilla and TBC were the best version of the game. I had so much fun and alot of the things accomplished by me and my guild felt very epic and gratifying. You cant take hard content/goals out of a game or like JarNod said you run the risk of making players not want to finish content or hit max level. I know in alot of games that had very little end game content or very easy content leveling to end game i never finished. Also another point he made, who cares if 1% made it to and defeated Naxx, it was still there for players who had the drive and skill to actually reach. You take that away and you might as well kill your game. Because you know as soon as people hit max, get geared and start running/beating content they will get bored and move on to another game. Not too mention you cant have a game that has a very fast leveling game, people get to end game too fast they will beat content that much faster and end up getting bored as well.

    There is a nice balance that they need to hit with this game. If done correctly it could be a close to perfect MMO. It has alot of MMO's to go off of and learn from like WoW and GW and Tera and games like that.

    Im still waiting for an MMO that is going to give me that epic feel that WoW did when I first started playing it for the first time. I hope this game can give me that feeling again and keep me wanting to play for years just like WoW did.
    John and JarNod like this.
  6. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    That is a really overlooked area, that goal to continue to strive for. If you can see and do everything almost instantly with no effort, where is the incentive to keep playing? Even if the top tier content is nearly impossible to reach, its still adds a lot to the world, it makes it feel big and real.
    Some of these MMOs now almost feel like a single player gamer with god mode turned on, you really have to go out of your way and try to find any dangerous creatures or situations in the world. Imo the world needs to be bigger than the player, its needs to be a little scary, there needs to be a legit threat of death around the corner. You can't have adventure without some risk :sneaky:
    Embermouth, Patrician and Veckna like this.
  7. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    285
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London, UK
    Pretty much sums everything up. Lets hope Wildstar has exactly that :)
  8. Dpz

    Dpz Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Drasas likes this.
  9. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    I truly hope those people stay playing Warcraft so they can keep their Looty tooty fresh and fruity Tuesday. The devs have to stand strong because the whining will be epic. People have been used to getting gear for practically logging in for almost 3 years now. It'll be hard to reverse that trend.
    Dpz likes this.
  10. Nym

    Nym Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    - Length of time dedicated to reaching content does not make a game harder or more enjoyable. It also does not make you any more skill full or more deserving then another player. I've known some horrible players that spend night and day in game, and people who spend and hour or 2 a day who are some of the best players in the world.

    - Not allowing all players to access content does not make a game more enjoyable.

    - Everyone heralds Pre-WoTLK as some golden age of wow... Not because it was the best designed content but because of nostalgia and the most of the time nerd epeen. "I did this back before everyone could do it", blah blah. Not everyone but, the majority of the people I have talked about this subject with personally.

    - Giving all players access to content is and will always be the best possible way of doing things.

    That clarify my statements and give a better background. I was an alpha tester in wow, I raided from late vanilla all the way to Cataclysm. I've cleared hard-mode content, been in server firsts, competed for world rankings, been apart of top guilds in multiple games. Most recently Tera and GW2.

    Despite having cleared content in BC and wow vanilla, still one of my all time favorite moments in all of gaming was killing Arthus in WOTLK. It was the end of what had been years of amazing lore and story. Even thou I had cleared him before the buff patch, I had many friends who did not have the capabilities to clear him before that patch. Many of which loved the Arthus story way more then I. Had they not been given the buff they would have been crushed. To have spent so many years reading, watching, playing, paying and being apart of this world, to be denied such a glorious moment because a few people, the 1% Naxx crowed felt they were the only deserved ones. Just a disgusting thought.

    If you want to have your glory moment that is fine. That's what things like Hard modes were directly designed for. I've done the hard mode content, large scale raiding, top tier pvp, been a "hardcore" player but not once did I ever think that other players should be barred from experience some of the amazing things I have done. Yes people may not be able to do the content at the difficulty settings that I may have done them at but they still got to experience the same adventure I did, which in the end is really all that matters.

    Note that I do not agree that players deserve the same compensation for their time and efforts. If a player clears normal mode they should get X gear, of they clear hardmode they should get Y gear. Time and effort do have value when it comes to compensation.

    Example
    Walking across hot coals-
    Normal mode - Walks across in shoes
    Hard mode - walks across bare foot

    Compensation
    Normal mode - "You did it" sticker
    Hard mode - Commemorative plaque with engraving of accomplishment

    Both people get to share the experience of the walking across coals. Both people rewarded for their individual efforts.
    Hope likes this.
  11. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    I simply don't agree. The journey in Warcraft is dead and with that the community has gone to complete garbage.
  12. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This thread is about World of Warcraft's community? :confused:
  13. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Well, it's basically a warning for all MMO's. This is what happens when a game listens to the whiners who demand things for little to no effort.
  14. Dpz

    Dpz Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2013
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Idk why but i laughed so hard when i read that. :roflamo:
  15. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    388
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    UK
    Pugging is great for memories at least, some for being actually awesome and others like the above for all the wrong reasons lol.
    Pugging Eternity Vault in SWTOR with 1 other random and a 6 man Russian guild (their tank spoke a little English) on my sniper alt (as the only one who'd been there before) and completing the full run with only a few wipes is one of my best PuG related memories. Only the drop down part of Soa proved too much for the language barrier so ended up sticking a mark on me to follow.
    Unfortunately waaaay too many of the latter (although they still provide a chuckle).
  16. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The whole original Naxx only 3% of the population issue wasn't about it being too hard it was Blizzard were to concerned with keeping the server first types happy and released it too close to an expansion that everyone pretty much knew was just around the corner.

    OMG I rushed through everything and now there is nothing left for me to do OMG this game has no content!!!! Well um why the rush?

    But them maybe I'm just old but I really enjoyed back when you know you had to figure out the encounters for yourself, sure you might gets some tips form some of the guilds on your server that had already done it but encounters involved experimentation and god forbid some wipes and repair bills....It's like I said to my nephew who must be in the best guild, was even willing to heal not because he liked healing but because he felt it increased his chances of getting inn to the best guild. These days the only 1sts that matter are the ones that didn't watch a youtube video...
  17. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Thank you for the reply Veckna. I am glad to see that people will still help each other. What I was really getting at was more of for raiding guilds as an entity rather than individuals in a guild.

    40 people is a large number of people to get into one place at one time on a regular basis. You are going to have turnover of people in these guilds. How do these large guilds bring in new players? You can keep advertising for more players but at some pint in time I would have thought that you would have to start teaching people.

    I would have thought that it would be short sighted of larger raiding guilds to set aside people when from what I understand raiding is a trained skill set.

    So I assume that from this statement that you feel that part of the training come down to the company as well. Do you feel that if people were properly rewarding for grouping with newbies to dungeons that certain individuals would do this?
  18. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Tbh this is a freaking monster topic cuz what is difficulty really, how do you define it, what's just tedious as opposed to genuinely challenging etc.. but ugh, screw that, I'm just gonna give my opinion.

    It should be hard. MMOs (and games in general....) are too easy nowadays. Content just gets trivial and people get bored.

    There is a pretty profitable niche for difficult games. Demon's Souls/Dark Souls and Path of Exile are testament to that. I'd love to see more MMOs with a good dose of content that cannot be done without a group, out in the open-world. GW2 did this well, not only due to open-tagging and upscaling of encounters and downscaling of character level; but bc a lot of open-world 'dynamic events' are specifically designed to not be completable solo and require at least 4-5 people to do. Me likely. More of this, please.

    Only problem with GW2 is outside of promoting grouping, once you are in a group, the content isn't difficult. Vanilla WoW's and vanilla-up-to-MoM Lotro's style of very unforgiving boss scripts that wiped your raid on just one person's mistake is something I'd like to see revived.

    Also more world bosses and more randomness involved. It's a bit dull when they're all just on predictable timers (sadly the case in GW2) so you can just far them at the correct intervals. Timers and locations should be a bit randomized so la la la I'm a scientist calibrating my multispectral baryon-emitter and HOLY <REDACTED> WTF IS THAT oh god please help run away

    you get the picture.
  19. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    388
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    UK
    Ah my misunderstanding, thought you wanted personal approaches too :oops:
    Recruitment hasn't really been my area other than the general 'if you encounter someone who shows promise/is willing to learn and fits with the ideals of the guild then ask if they want a trial'. Typically that scenario for me, at least, took place after content was on farm and I was levelling alts. It's also very random but you can get 'lucky' with it - I guess that would fall under your area for teaching new people?

    With regards to higher volume recruiting better known/ranked guilds usually have an easier time of it (ie it's easier to get applications if you're server first or continent PvE server first or higher etc). My past WoW guilds generally had a high volume of recruits transferring servers to join so numbers weren't really an issue (was also only 25 man) although quality often was, losing a chunk of 'core' players to boredom before Sunwell came out in TBC proved impossible to fully recover from due to lower volumes of recruits at that stage + poor quality.

    In AoC recruitment was almost non-existent on the server so it went raiding alliance>full blown merger which then worked out well (until we ran out of content in a month or two :D). I guess that's a more drastic way for guilds to cope with membership turnover.

    If non of those work out ie due to low server population, guild type (a progression guild will have a harder time finding recruits it needs than a mass invite guild for example), guild competition and so on then it's a very tough situation to be in for a guild (Rift is an example where I saw that first hand) and you start looking at mass transfers to busier servers, lowering recruiting standards or whatever else the guild might be able to cope with to bring in more members. Doesn't always work out though (didn't for us in Rift so we just called it a day).

    Not sure if that's any help - was a good excuse for a ramble on though :p

    I don't really think it's a different skillset to be fair - it's the same things just with a smaller margin for error (although even this is not always the case if the small group content has high difficulty levels) due to larger numbers and more people.
    Skill/character knowledge/willingness to learn/ability to follow instructions/ability to innovate when plans go wrong/honesty over mistakes/etc are all part of group play no matter how large the group, I also find it's easier to observe people in small groups too and to 'throw people in the deep end' so to speak to watch how they hold up.
    Again that's just my opinion so could be wrong.

    What I meant by the 'Aside from that the onus is on the players to know their classes/roles well enough to handle the content (they should have had some solo play before they get to the first instance).' was that most games have at least some form of tutorial at the start to get people into the swing of controlling their character and the first fights. That + what they learn from the first couple of levels running about bashing stuff and experimenting should be enough for the first instance as they tend to be pretty forgiving.
    So part of the training has already been done by the company in the sense of the initial tutorial (if there is one) and the starter content prior to the first instance.
    That being said for new players a group dynamics primer might be an idea. Something explaining concepts like agro/healing agro/agro management, tanking, pulling, crowd control, the group loot system, group finder(?) etc. Getting people to go through such a tutorial might be more of a challenge and also implementing it in a fun way (mini instance with NPC's for example?).

    With regards for rewarding people for grouping with new players I'm not sure how they'd implement this. I've seen things like alternate currencies used where higher level players are 'paid' to do runs with lower levels but this type of system ruins the content for the new player (unless they just want to sit back and collect loot - takes all sorts).

    Having a greater reward than normal for having a player in the group who has not done the instance before would end up with people looking for 1 new person to fill their group to get max rewards rather than being interested in actually helping the new players (they'd just drag them through a speed run as it would be more 'efficient').
    Something which rewards a full group of 'first timers' could negatively impact players who enjoy helping others (if they have already ran the instance people will exclude them in order to get the greater rewards given to a 'first time' group).
    Anything in between will likely still end up falling foul of the 'most efficient way to get the best rewards' mentality of the majority of todays playerbase (might be an unfair generalisation but seems to be the trend these days).

    No clue how they could make such an incentive system work - anything reward-wise would need to be desirable to encourage people to do it, anything desirable leads to people wanting to farm it and that's when you get the problems - vicious circle.

    My god I've written War & Peace - got carried away (and I still blame the coffee) sorry!
  20. Noa

    Noa Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    There should always be a challenge, now it shouldn't be something SO hard you need a whole team of folks to work out the logistics of it all, but it should be hard enough for you to have to work at it for a while, something that makes it feel like you actually accomplished something, instead of you managed to move your thumb a little faster then the other monkey's.

Share This Page