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The Engineer

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Jabberwocky, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Mellkor,

    It absolutely could be balanced, but the Tier and AMP system likely complicate that.

    Imagine if you could Tier up just your DPS and Tank pet and still had access to the other two: You'd have no problems in PvE at all, just send the pets in and stand back and shoot a little, you'd barely have to try to quest up while the four of your pets went and handled all of the work.

    It really would eliminate the "active" from the combat. While a cool idea, I think that it would have made the balancing far too dirty/messy for the dev team. Subsequently this simpler system makes for better class balance for the players.

    Just my two cents.
  2. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    Why not have different drone modes, and allow customization of those modes.

    Example: "Dps Armada" (4 dps drones)
    When active: spawns 4 dps drones each done outputs 100dps, hp per drone -65%​
    For each upgrade, each drone receives 5% increase to dps​

    Example: "Utility array"(4 assorted drones)
    when active: spawns 4 individual drones (Tank,DPS,CC,Healing)​
    Due to the unusually high energy requirement of using 4 simultaneous drones:​
    • Dps Drone does 250dps
    • Tank drone increases armor resistance by 20%, (does not taunt)
    • CC Slows enemy movement by 7.5% (radius 5 meters, auto cd 5 seconds)
    • Healing heals the player at %2.5(p5)
    Drone link allows for drones to be at a maximum of 3 meters from the player in follow mode, deployed drones (stationary) have a range of 30 meters.​

    Utility array can can be upgraded so that each drone receives a small increase in stats or one individual drone will receive a medium boost at he cost of a negative effect to the rest.​

    example: "rock and roll" (1 tank, 1 healer) - base example
    when active:​
    • Tank drone may track and tank a target up to 10 meters.
    • Heal drone heals the player @ %5(p5).
    Why would you settle for simple mechanics because of balance.? I thought that the main attraction of wild-star is harder, complex systems?​

    I mean for all the attention that wow gets for being "dumbed down" they still managed to pull of a 4 pet system ie totems.​
  3. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Thank you for already capitalising that word. Again it CAN be a dedicated class.
    But if we use the dictionary and the meaning of the word, then one cannot say he's dedicated pet class.
    They had a good template for it? Yup, but ever thought about it that those totems couldn't move etc. These robots even have their own little ''command bar''. So think about the hunter having 4 different pet's with abilities and command etc......You would have to mini-manage the <REDACTED> outta things with so many bars.

    2 robots is more then enough without extremely complicating the class.
  4. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    I prototyped an exact solution in the post above.
    Its not rocket science, and wont overly complicate things by having 4 drones out.

    If there is a public screenshot of the bot/drone ui, i will make an elegent mock ui to demonstrate how easy it could be.
  5. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    No but I want to see a different ''action bar'' for each pet.
    Aka 1 bar with ''attack, defend, follow'' for each pet. In that case I still think having 4 robots + your own actions bar in an action oriented game would be a bit too much.

    4 pet follow the same command (attack = all robots attack), that what I don't like.
  6. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    In the case of "DPS" i never said you could not have the ability to manipulate individual drones. as always, Its about context

    You need to encapsulate all the relevant information and hide all the irrelevant <REDACTED> away from the user. Therefore:

    On your main bar. You have a master drone control which acts on behalf of all 4 drones. using your example:
    • Attack
    • Defend
    • Follow
    • Deploy
    Now, this is where the contextual menu system comes into play, When you select a drone you get an instance of the main bar that is specific to that drone. in theory, you could assign each drone to a target doing different things.
    • When you click on a drone, it returns the current enemy and options.
    • When you click on enemy it returns the assigned drone.
    • Having a button on the end of the bar returns you to "Master control" or alternatively having no target.
    Now weather your sold or not on my idea for 4 dps bots, having control of an individual drone would be a pointless oversize. each drone does 1/4 of the total possible damage and each drone is fragile to compensate.if you select drone 1 and fire at an enemy, that enemy could quickly destroy drone one because of its weak hp value. The goal in my proposal was to have a much higher damage potential than a single drone, but allow enemies to take down drones fast so it would not be OP.


    The core principal here is, Its an easy automated system with the main menu but if you want to micromanage that option is open to you as well.
  7. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    The overall issue Mellkor is complexity. There is a tertiary issue having to do with the game's combat philosophy, but I'll get to that in a moment.

    The game already requires the player to engage in rapid movement, skillshots, and multivariate skill activation. Adding pet management to an already complex action system would do nothing but bog down the engineer, requiring him to stand still, juggle buttons and micro-manage pets. While I agree it would be cool to see 4 tiny machines of death skittering across the field to bring destruction to my foes, it is too complex a system to add to the class within the context of the current design philosophy.

    Which brings me to the next point: WildStar's combat design philosophy. It is obvious to any observer that Carbine wants us to engage in fluid, fast, skillshot based combat with a high degree of mobility. They already have their innate ability system, which would need to be superseded by your drone prototype due to its potential power. Also, that much drone activity when balanced down to appropriate levels would make the bots little more than mobile DoT's, Medic probes with legs. And finally: pet management beyond single skill use, tends to lead to a "Stand and Shoot" player mentality which as mentioned above is not what Carbine wants to engender in the player base.

    Adding "drone modes" doesn't solve the problem, it just turns each group of pets into a single skill that has varying effects. It is essentially what is happening in game right now but with more utility, which could have its own benefits, but then the player would not have to think about pet usage nearly as much. "Oh, just use utility because it provides defense, dmg and some CC."

    And that, now that I think of it, contradicts another key philosophy: player input. Make the player make the right decision by limiting the number of options available at any given time. Options are power, the more options you have, the more powerful you are in any given situation. Give a player that many options that are easy to manage and the play becomes easy.

    As I said early, a swarm of bots would be neat, but I don't think that it would mesh well in the game or would be what players or the devs are looking for.
  8. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    I understand your concerns however.

    Micromanagement is in inherit in Pet classes... if you already have to manage 2 pets that breaks all the design philosophies you mention already. if anything, having one master bar to control 4 pets at once would make it easier.

    I just don't understand where people going with this, It seems to be that wildstar is attracting 'hardcore types' or people not currently happy with the skill level mmos currently offer.
    Yet were having a conversation about dumbing down a concept because it would be to complex... a concept that is currently active in one of the most arguably 'dumbed down game' in existence.

    But hey, if they want to do promo vids with engineers looking badass with 4 drones out which is not an accurate depiction of what happens in game. who am i to judge.
    teh_ninjaneer likes this.
  9. Sapien

    Sapien Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am so goin to be a Granok with a huge ass gun, to spread some mayhem, chaos and devastation. :devilish::laugh:..:up:
  10. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i wanna be a engi but i dont know what race.
  11. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd argue a couple of points here Mellkor.

    First, I don't think micromanagement needs to be part of pet classes. That is a preconception from other games that do not have active combat like WildStar's. Even looking at GW2(the only game I have experience with that has a similar LAS system with a dedicated pet class), the pet only has one ability that can be used by the player. The brilliant simplicity of WildStar's system is that your pets are typical pets from other games in that they're permanent, yet they operate like a skill for your bar. It gives the player an active interaction with their pets with out forcing them to stop moving and micromanage.

    Next, I don't feel that simplifying skills and systems is "dumbing them down." Quite the opposite actually, I think that systems such as this make the games more fun to play within such a dynamic combat environment.

    Finally, hardcore doesn't mean we want the game to be needlessly complex, it means that we don't want the best parts of the game fed to us on a silver spoon. Hardcore players like to work for the good stuff in the game, but like all players, there is a preference for the "work" to be fun and engaging. A good example is the build used by Merkal during the Medic Stream today. He used DoT's, fields and control to take on 3 mobs at a time, but it didn't take him much longer than his first build against solo mobs. That kind of gameplay is what hardcore players are looking for: big pay off for knowing how to play the game.
    Sapien and Skippy like this.
  12. Crushinator

    Crushinator New Cupcake

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    The pet debate is all well and good but what I found more interesting on the live stream was the range and cast time of the engineer's abilities used in the duel. I expected modest range but saw some skills that seemed to extend out to the 30 meter mark. It also seemed like many of the skills used had an absurdly long cast time. Seemed like the blasts from the pet were detrimental while the actual engineer attacks were easily avoidable.
  13. LoweGearShift

    LoweGearShift Cupcake

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    I'll admit that unless the fight specifically calls for my pets, or their cooldowns are just that good, I only intend on using the Repair Bot as part of my default. The pets are cool but I am drawn the class more for the tanking with a boomstick and heavy armor than I am for the iron hunter aspect. I still see myself trying each pet out at least once before I decide against them though.

    And since this seems like an apropos thread, I'll just just leave this here until Wednesday.
    http://cdn.crushable.com/files/2012/08/snape-my-body-is-ready.gif
  14. Argonic

    Argonic New Cupcake

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    At least the bruiser pet might have some qualities when tank spec. They mentioned it off tanking in the interview, and it could also be an oh <REDACTED> and snap agro off at low hp from from its leap/taunt ability. Also the damage reduction taunt gives might have uses.
    Repair/bruiserpet might end up being a good combo for tanking.

    Time will tell though as we get closer to release, we've only seen what the artillery bot could do so far.
  15. Draxus

    Draxus Cupcake

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    Looks interesting. Gonna check it for sure.

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