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The Evolution of Targeting and Aiming & Autoattacks

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Fraya, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    So it's my understanding right now that Wildstar is currently 90% telegraph skills, and 10% targeted, and the general direction is to eliminate the remaining target based skills. In my opinion, tab-target MMOs are the old generation, and action-based combat (third person shooter-esque targeting) is the new generation. A good example of each is WoW the former and Neverwinter the latter.

    From what I've been able to tell, Wildstar uses the oldschool tab-target free-cursor system, but is heavily invested in next-generation skills that are based on the way the character faces. It's not a bad hybrid. The free camera movement allows you to pan around you while facing a specific direction, allowing for different combat possiblilities. You can track spawning adds behind you while still burning the boss ahead of you. You can pan your camera around freely while you are running mounted through a zone. You don't have to deal with awkward swap-to-cursor and back menu systems.

    But it doesn't feel as pure. I think many of the people that played Neverwinter with me will agree that it had zads of flaws, but the combat was fun and engaging out of the gates. The first 10 minutes had me telling my friends 'Wow this is actually fun.' after expecting the exact opposite from PerfectWorld.

    Therein lies my concern with Wildstar. The game is clearly cutting edge in many ways. But the aiming and targeting system are still weighted down by relics of the past. The game has fantastic nameplates above the mobs heads, and an open UI to fix it if you don't like it. It doesn't need target plates. It doesn't need the tab-targeting free-cursor system at all. There are several things that can be said are worse with a fixed camera and zero targeting system, but combat is not one of them. It feels a lot more real-time, and a lot more in control. It's less like you're telling a character what to do, and more like it's just you in the drivers seat.

    It feels like an aged and overplayed design, and I'd be happy to see it go. This leads me to autoattacks as well. I see no reason for them to exist in any MMO at all. I question why - inbetween the skills you direct the character to do - the character is doing it's own thing, every 2.6 seconds. And why only the melee/bow wielding characters are doing it. It doesn't make sense in terms of animation, it's just something that collides with and muddles the other animations. It doesn't make sense of gameplay, it just takes direct control of 20-30% of a characters damage out of the players hands. And it definitely doesn't add anything to balance, it just makes it more obfuscated.

    I think the targeting system and autoattack system are like an appendix to the game. It's there because it's supposed to be, but the best-case scenario is going through life without it causing any problems. What do you guys think? Relics of cave-man days, or am I way off base?

    EDIT: Apologies guys, from what I'd gleaned from convention gameplay videos I'd thought Wildstar was still using autoattacks. As pointed out by several people below, it is not.
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  2. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think you're right. Tab-targetting and the usual cycles of ability pressing is incredibly boring--I would have macro'd it if it wouldn't make combat even more boring and if I actually knew how to back then.

    The action-combat feels more visceral and entertaining. It brings with it a higher skill-ceiling a flavour not unlike one of my favourite video game genres, the Brawler.
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  3. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I do agree that Autoattack is a relic, and often used in lack of propper resource management. Not saing it's a bad mechanic that should never be used, but it needs better implementation than just a filler between abilities.

    Regarding Tabtargeting, it's a well formed system that is confirmed and do work. Telegraph system is rather an atempt to improve this system and make it more interactive instead of reinventing the wheel. I can agree that a truly Aimed based targeting can make the combat more interactable, but one of the things that bugged me in TERA was that you couldn't even walk and look at your character window or questlogg at the same time due to it.
  4. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    Aye, I agree, though I never played TERA. The menu system among other things would be a lot more cumbersome with a fixed camera and no cursor. I think that's a price I'd be willing to pay though. It completely frees up left and right click too, so who knows what can be done with them. They're the two most valuable pieces of interface real-estate.

    I wonder how it would feel if the role of right click were reversed. Where it causes the camera to become fixed in a typical MMO, could it be reversed to unlock the camera from the character in a fixed-camera based system? That might be counter-intuitive to the entire system though.
  5. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Auto-attacks are needed because not everyone is a pro who knows how to manage resources.

    The targeting system is there for pretty much the same reason. It is there because not everyone is super articulate and can handle total free-form targeting.

    There are children, older adults, and even disabled people who enjoy gaming and might not be able to handle the game if the elements mentioned were removed.
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  6. atom

    atom Cupcake-About-Town

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    What? Neverwinter's targeting and combat put me to sleep. Same poorly executed rehashed idea that GW2 started with.
  7. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    What if I say this is not the case in WS? ;) (atleast not auto-attacks ala other games were your chaacter just attacks on itself).
  8. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    If there is no auto-attack via a default attack button or function when you run out of power/mana or whatever the resource is called, I have no problems with it but the reason I gave for needing it in games is still valid.
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  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    there is NO auto-attack in WS - at least not for players. Players have to make sure they're doing stuff all the time, or risk dying.
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  10. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i was at first against there being no auto attack system. now i see it as a change that seems like it will be good. it will be different from wow and a few other games. im all for it now.
  11. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    As other have stated there is no auto-attack. My understanding is that WildStar has a builder attack that takes the place of auto-attack. It's not automatic but it's a instant cast. This is speculation from the things I have read or heard and is not to be construed as fact.

    Personally I have no strong feelings about the approach that Carbine is taking towards auto-attack but, I will say that your stated demographic does not seem to be the intended audience of WildStar. I'm not saying it's a good thing it's just my thought on the issue.
  12. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

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    Both "old fashioned" tab-targeting and the "new" telegraphs have large groups of fans and each system has pros and cons.

    Personally, I'm a fan of the "old-fashioned" tab-targeting. Whilst telegraphing / aiming (i.e. twitch) gaming may seem more realistic I find that a computer game controlled with a mouse and keyboard will never be able to relay my thoughts accurately, i.e. my brain moves quicker than I can relay commands via standard controls. What this means to me is that the combat just ends up feeling wrong after a while and I get frustrated by the lack of responsiveness.

    On the other hand, tab-targetting more accurately reflects how my brain would envisage combat. I don't have to worry about aiming with a mouse (which will never keep up with my brain) because the computer does it for me and I can focus on what is important: using cool abilities and some movement. The outcome is less realistic in terms of what I have to input, but I find it to be more realistic in terms of what I see on the screen and how I would wish my character to act.


    Still, both systems are fun and if implemented well, both systems can be excellent.
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  13. Nicodemus

    Nicodemus Well-Known Cupcake

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    I believe Chrilin is correct. your first attack isn't an auto attack per-say, but more of something you spam to wait for resource regen. and its one click = one swipe/shot/magic bolt. As for Tab targeting, I like some of the control it gives you to quickly cycle.

    However with larger telegraph attacks I believe its going to be interesting to optimize your mob pulls. Ie. I ether want to AOE all of these easy mobs, or I need to single out this one particular creature and not pull the people behind it, And I believe the tab targeting system doesn't take that into account.
  14. Konoko

    Konoko Cupcake-About-Town

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    • Neverwinter's targeting system is hardly Third Person. Try Tera or Vindictus for a more 3rd person style Action based MMO.
    • WildStar's targeting system does look awkward. I do hope they continue to update this part of the game.
    • Giving an option to free up mouse look would be nice I do not want to go to the use of a addon to give me mouse look. Holding down right mouse click all the time to give me this type of functionality is incredible antiquated.
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  15. Konoko

    Konoko Cupcake-About-Town

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    Can you say Click, Click, Click, Clickity Click! :)
  16. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    I believe Carbine already stated that using free form targetting will be more effective than tab-targetting, i think you guys are misunderstanding the system, you re not a turret automatically firing at the target, this will not be a WoW combat system.
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  17. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have to disagree with you on that. All of the people listed have been playing games (not just MMOs) that do not have an auto attack system set up just fine. Do they all have to be gladiators/top tier raiders/solo gaming masters? No, but they will still be getting their enjoyment out of the game. It's generally more engaging to force your players to actually do something rather than reward them for doing nothing.

    Auto-attacks are certainly not needed, and anyone who says the game will feel more spammy without auto-attacks should reference World of Warcraft. There is very little downtime in button pushing for just about all classes and auto-attacks are very much alive and well. The game can easily have attacks with 0 resource cost/resource generation to smooth out periods of low resource/resource pooling similar to SWTOR and TERA and that would reduce the "skill requirement" to cover the people you have mentioned. However it has been Carbine's expressed goal to try and train its playerbase to play its own game. I hope that's a statement they stick to.

    For the love of god this. At least have a toggle in the client configuration to have free mouse look/right mouse look to choose your preference.
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  18. Fraya

    Fraya Cupcake

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    Neverwinters free mouse toggle was Alt, though it didn't allow you to pan your camera around your character. I'm sure it's possible to have a keybind in a fixed-camera system that swapped between systems on the fly. Naturally, it would disable whatever two binds were on left and right click while active, but you'd have full access to the traditional MMO camera type for a brief moment when you want it.
  19. Konoko

    Konoko Cupcake-About-Town

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    Shouldn't be a keyboard button. Should be a UI checkbox. Just DOOOOOoo EEEEEeet!
  20. GoatSlayrr

    GoatSlayrr Well-Known Cupcake

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    As long as it's a check box, and not forced one way or the other. In NW I was constantly fighting the UI because of the forced always on mouse look. With the menus we've been shown in WS, being forced to push a key to get my mouse pointer would drive me batty.

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