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The Evolution of Targeting and Aiming & Autoattacks

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Fraya, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am sure there were many forum posts about not liking the action combat, but lots of posts gives very little information on the actual population that left solely because of the action oriented combat. For me, it wasn't the action style combat, but rather the action combat without a trinity and 0 difficult end game content. Without the trinity, and with a complete immunity dodge mechanic, the damage output must be very binary and it severely limits your ability to craft interesting and difficult encounters.

    Certainly free-form targeting will take more skill than tab-targeting, but it isn't quite to the same level as FPS aim. Mobs do not move that quickly and there will be ranged mobs that will stay in place casting, and most mobs we have seen will stay in place as they cast their telegraphs, which all afford you the opportunity to hit them with a free-form CC. Straight line telegraph with the closest mob being hit is an option, smaller circle telegraph with the closest to center being hit is another, and you can utilize a trap CC on the ground. Likely they will utilize all of those options, which creates more diverse skills and helps in balancing the CC.

    CCing will be more like hunter traps and less like polymorph, requiring more skill and more teamwork than just tab target + 2 seconds cast = mob out of the fight for 1 min. Missing (either completely or hitting the wrong target) will also increase the variablity of even simple trash pulls, and requires your group to adapt. Good CCers will be as valuable as good tanks/healers.

    P.S. Can we please keep this thread on topic of aiming/targeting and not on business model.
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  2. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> I was about to say so myself. Do keep the payment model topic to the appropriate thread. It really has no place in this thread. So, uh, well done for calling that out before me, Bnol. :D </Mod Monocle>
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  3. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your opinion is that you think tab targeting is better. I am not saying that is wrong, I'm saying it's not necessary to accomplish the things you listed. Preference and necessity are two different things. You tried to state opinion as fact when it was not. Your argument that tab targeting is necessary because you can only do X, Y, and Z with tab targeting is wrong because we've already seen other games do those things without it. You can certainly argue the idea that you think tab targeting does those things better and more fun than the alternatives, because that is just opinion and people can either agree or disagree with that.

    Neither of those has anything to do with the combat. "No endgame" is a lack of the traditional endgame content that gamers have come to expect, and that was indeed an issue. "No holy trinity" is a lack of traditional class roles leading to different fight mechanics, class builds, and basic gameplay forcing more varied, hybrid, and self sustainable gameplay, and all that was definitely an issue as well. Neither of those things have anything to do with combat.

    The funny part is those are things they clearly said would be the way they are, yet I think a lot of us, myself included, tried to make ourselves believe it would be fun despite being so different from what we really wanted from an MMO. Nope, wasn't.

    I was not a fan of GW2's combat but even I will admit that it was the exact opposite of clunky and stiff.

    It sounds like you didn't get beyond level 5 in TERA because they actually have quite a lot of skills. Most classes have an average of 20-25 I'd say. My Priest and Mystic both actually had 32-33 keybinds just for class skills (so not including consumables, mount, etc. so in reality I had more), but several of those skills were buffs or pets.



    Sorry for the long post but there's just so much to reply to... :eek:
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  4. Pyrhos

    Pyrhos New Cupcake

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    Mobs don't move that quickly, however double-jumping, dashing, sprinting players in an arena do, for example. Also, we have mostly seen low level content and there was a mention of more complex mechanics being added over time as you level up. But even then, CC-ing mobs is quite trivial with both systems, this is more of a PvP issue.

    From what I've seen, I believe most of CC will be free form, thus creating the diversity you and I both crave. There are however, still challenges to overcome with a tab-target. Fake casting in PvP, making you waste your cooldowns, Interrupt Armor on bosses in PvE...

    So, in conclusion, free-form targeting is more skill based than tab-targeting in most situations. That's why 90% of the spells are free-form. There are also cases where it's just inaccurate and frustrating - choosing a particular raid member among 39 others, taunting away a particular single mob out of a group, saving the dying tank, focusing one particular mob in a crowd etc.
    And that's why there is a hybrid system in place, taking the best from both worlds.

    If I stated my opinion as a fact, I wouldn't start my original sentence with "I don't think..."

    So to make myself clear: Everything I say here is mostly my personal opinion.
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  5. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    In PVP, I find free-form is superior as it gives another dimension to teamwork and positioning to protect teammates by intercepting CC for them. If they just stay together you can AoE them, so it will be an intricate dance to position properly, maybe you need to use dodge aggressively to get position to CC. Nothing prevents you from fake casting a CC to get them to waste a dodge, or use an interrupt armor ability.

    It comes down to whether that 10% of abilities can be properly balanced compared to the free-form abilities. How much of an abilities budget should tab-target utilize? Do the classes have enough options between tab and free-form? How should the encounters be balanced? I just don't see how they will be able to find that perfect balance without the tab-target or the free-form ability being dominant. Edit: [I can see all single target taunts being tab target abilities and all healers having a tab-target single target heal, as you can more easily maintain balance]. I think it is better to go fully with free-form, and have players adjust their play. Now certainly that doesn't seem to be happening, especially with healing.
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  6. Pyrhos

    Pyrhos New Cupcake

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    Since you are given the option to choose your skill set, that will depend on you. While there might be a free-form CC that stuns everyone for 3 seconds, there might be a single-target stun for 6 seconds. Both are useful in a certain situation. They don't need to find the balance - players will have to.

    I think that healing will actually be mostly free-form with the exception of big heals and life-saving spells which will be costly, but accurate - healers will have to move constantly, lining up their heals as efficiently as possible while avoiding damage. It might also depend on class choice.
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  7. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    But that isn't just a difference between targeting, but also 2 abilities with different purposes (AoE stun v. single target stun). Say you have 2 single target CC options available for your class, one is tab-targeted and one is a free-form target, how much potency would you reduce from the tab targeted one, considering it will automatically hit? That is the difficulty in a hybrid system, and even if all single target CC abilities are tab targeted, if you have aoe CC you still have to make a similar determination because of aiming.

    I don't think they have really locked down the healing portion, but obviously I hope it is more free-form, but not be class restrictive in terms of tab-targetting options.
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  8. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    They all use it for a reason, that reason is to make money.

    Every game that is released seems to be Sub, and then they go F2P at about 500k subs.


    That is the case for most, but it doesn't have to be the case for all. The other games failed as subscription, because they had a B2P game with sub model. No one is going to keep paying for that. If the game is made properly, as Carbine is supposedly doing, then there is no reason it can't work.

    One could say the same to you about not wanting to pay a subscription.


    Where is the evidence for that?
    It isn't even logical!

    LOTRO and Rift went years as subscription.

    F2P is nothing more than 1 last cash grab.
    For a couple months they get a big boost of income, and then nothing. They have no intention of using that money to update the game. After it goes F2P its over. F2P is where games go to die.

    TSW was a steaming pile of <REDACTED>! That game was so bad it wasn't even funny!
  9. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    No, you're making an invalid comparison. I was pointing out that you seem to be attributing several things that have nothing to do wit the payment model, to the payment model, even though games that have had or lacked those features have been represented on all sorts of payment models. That you do this is true regardless of our respective views on payment models, and that I do not do this is equally true. There is no equivalency here, this is not a "you have one side and I have another let's agree to disgaree," on that point at least. You are presenting a factually flawed argument.

    And yet it is true. Every MMO that has gone F2P reports higher profits after the change than they had before it. It's possible that they had higher profits in the initial months, but it's equally fair to argue that it's easier to keep customers than it is to win them back, so there's a fair debate to be had as to whether it's better to gouge early adopters for as much as you can get until you've driven most of them away, and then go F2Phopes of pulling at leastm back, or just starting out F2P and maintaining the maximum possible audience and retaining their customer loyalties.
  10. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    lets just stop with the sub model garbage and talk about the actual subject of the post please.
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  11. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Moderator Xecks makes his appearance!
  12. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    naw i just hate when people <REDACTED> about the sub model . its like "fine i get it you dont want to pay " just leave and dont come back already.
  13. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I get you. Nobody ever agrees and both sides are adamant that the other doesn't work no matter what info is presented to them. I feel like somehow we're talking about politics but in a strange language called "mmo gamer".
  14. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    ugh well at least we know they could be successful politicians. when they get off the video games.
  15. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Probably given today's political standards. :p
  16. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    The 5 skills were refering to GW2
  17. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Okay guys, this is really getting out of hand. It's reached a "prove to me you'll stick to the topic so I don't have to close it" level and it really shouldn't have to get to that point. </Mod Monocle>
  18. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was referring to the quote, "Tera did it ok, although i would like more hotbar skills instead of mashing left and right mousebutton over and over". You DO have a ton of hotbar skills in TERA, several hotbars worth of them in fact, and you rarely use the right/left mouse button skills except for regaining mana occasionally and the other skill for defense since it's usually your evade/block skill. It is a hotbar game except you manually aim and manually evade/block.
  19. Scarzi

    Scarzi Cupcake-About-Town

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    dragon nest added avoidance into abilities, giving you other ways to dodge while dealing damage. Also, the normal dodge could be talented to do damage as well. for almost every class.
  20. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it depends a bit on the class. On my slayer i used the mousebuttons alot to dodge etc.
    But TERA did it better then GW2 by having alot of skills without an exessive amount of movement.

    Staying in combatrange, be it melee or range depending on class, should take up 90% of the fight, the other 10 should only be avoiding big hits.

    If i spend more then 50% of the time dodging and running around like speedy gonzales, that just feks up the combat.

    I dont know about the rest, but i like combat, not running marathons.
    GW2 is combat is so horrible i spend alot of time laughing at my whole team running around and rolling on floor.

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