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The Evolution of Targeting and Aiming & Autoattacks

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Fraya, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's just a genuinely accepted fact that everyone quit GW2, even though the active population of the game is the same or higher than it was at launch. Because. . . reasons.
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  2. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can target people with single target heals, you can CC one target and hit another, you can do anything you like with a system that doesn't use tab targeting. It doesn't mean every skill is one big AoE, it just means you acquire targets differently and have to worry more about things like aiming and positioning and dodging. As for the Ele in GW2, I played it as well and am not sure what you mean by that?
  3. Leiloni

    Leiloni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well a lot of people did quit although for a variety of reasons. A lot of people were disappointed by one thing or another - the game was just overhyped.
  4. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, a lot of people quit, a lot of people always quit everything, but the game launched with a higher population than most games have ever reached, so a lot of people can leave without anyone noticing they were ever there in the first place. I just find all the "well, you don't want to end up like GW2" posts a little hilarious.
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  5. Supercorgi

    Supercorgi Cupcake

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    Great point. From what I'm reading, I'm very psyched about this game. But I have disabilities that limit to how fast I can key punch and react to things. I think the movement in this game is great, just afraid I may not be able to do it. With the release of their business model, I'm really wondering if there's going to be any sort of free trial so I can figure out if I can actually physically play this game. I really don't want to spend $60 for a box game just to find out that I can't really play it. Has anyone heard whether there will be any sort of free trial of some sort?
  6. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There will be friend passes that are given to those who buy the game. Find someone who is getting the game for sure and ask if you could use one of their friend passes so that you could try it out. Outside of that, no free trial at launch but likely down the line at some point.
  7. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    They would be wise to have at the minimum a limited open beta, even just a few weekends leading up to release. MMOs are a large commitment, and they'll catch a lot more customers if they let people sneak a taste before having to pay money for it.
  8. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Pretty much any <REDACTED>ty MMO can launch and get a couple million sales. That isn't even a feat anymore, just expected. GW2 has some issues, and lots of people have either quit playing, or only log on occasionally. Lets not pretend box sales is equal to subscribers.

    In this case, WS certainly doesn't want to end up like GW2. If it did, then it would be an absolute failure. A working subscription model, and b2p model are radically different.
  9. Supercorgi

    Supercorgi Cupcake

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    Thanks for that info! Well when the time comes, I'll definitely be looking to mooch...er...borrow someone's friend pass. :)
  10. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There will be an open beta. Already confirmed. Fear not, my friend!
  11. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    There were loads of topics about it on various forums and mmorpg news boards, and the main reason together with no endgame and no holy trinity to why alot of people left.

    All ST skills are so slow, the projectile are extremly visible and flies very slow in the air. An enemy player can just move to the side and the spell will fly by.
    The only ST skill that hits decently is the lightning nr 1, but it also bounces around everything else.

    Same with the ranged CC, people just run around it.

    It ended up with everyone rolling melee dagger/dagger builds to spam knockdowns so players couldnt avoid the AoE dmg.
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sure, but GW2 got 3.5 million, which was over a million more than The Old Republic got with both the Bioware and Star Wars name behind it, and GW2 retained the bulk of them.

    Some people may have left, plenty claim to, but you'd never know it logging in on an average night and seeing the popular areas packed to the gills. They had their highest player concurrencies in recent months, and have a growing active player rate, don't try to spin it into something it's not. And also, don't confuse paying subscribers with active players either, plenty of people just don't bother to unsub on games that they never or rarely play. Even with WoW's 8 million subs, I doubt even half of those play weekly.

    Yes, because the latter is actually achievable. ;)

    Yes, and those people are gone and nobody noticed them leaving or cares to have them back. There are always self-important blowhards who are unhappy with the state of the game and quit in a noisy huff, expecting that they'll be considered to represent tens of thousands of other players, but it just doesn't work out that way. I by no means dispute that some players left the game, just that there are still way more people playing than the game actually needs to have to be a financial and gameplay success. It's like complaining that Disney Land isn't quite as packed on a given day than it was when they first opened and scammers flooded the market with counterfeit tickets.

    If it were a ghost town like TOR was three months in then I might be worried, but so long as every time I go to a world event in the middle of the night there are always dozens of other players there, perhaps even a hundred or more, and this is on a relatively low pop server where they haven't needed to do any server consolidation (like TOR and DCUO needed to), and any time I want to run a dungeon there are plenty of people also wanting to run it that I rarely have to spend more than a couple minutes trying to find one, and often am in within thirty seconds, yeah, I think they're doing just fine. Hell, it would have been nice to have a few less people around a couple weeks back, when I had to show up two hours in advance if I wanted to get into my home server's instance of the Tequatl fight.

    Their next patch is supposed to make some heavy changes to Ele Staff, although personally I don't see why anyone would use something other than Dagger/Dagger, it's like you're the Avatar! If you're talking about PvP, then yeah, Staff probably never will be the way to go, plenty of weapon sets are not ideal for PvP because PvP is very fast paced and mostly 1v1, so support builds or slow builds tend to get left behind, and there's really no logical solution for that.
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  13. Pyrhos

    Pyrhos New Cupcake

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    <sarcasm> Yeah, and saying someone's opinion is wrong is really friendly. </sarcasm>

    I'm not wrong and neither are you. We just have a different opinion.

    Actually I can think of ways to solve it, I just don't think any of the possible methods would be better than what we have right now or what Carbine would go for.

    One big obstacle is CC. Undoubtedly, some of it will be single target. How do you determine which target it hits if there are more present in the telegraph? You would have to be extremely accurate with your aiming (and make the telegraph really small), which would partly turn combat into an FPS and / or you would probably need a crosshair which would also require player collision.

    The other thing you could do is, instead of aiming at a person directly, you would telegraph a circle on the ground beneath a target, but people can stand on top of each other, so you still have a big accuracy problem.

    Third option is to not have single targetting abilities at all. Which would require massive changes to everything.

    Given this example, I think you can see that changing the aiming system would require changing the entire spell system and the nature of combat itself, which I do not believe Carbine would go for, because the fluidity of the current system is hard to match.

    In the Devspeak - Aiming they said they have experimented with various styles of combat, including crosshair targetting and MOBA "skill shots" and, even though it had it's supporters, they moved away from it.

    If you can think of a targetting system which is NOT mentioned in the DevSpeak AND is a viable solution, I would sure like to hear about it.
  14. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think all the recent bad MMOs is evidence that the subscription model is dead.

    Don't get me wrong for a B2P game GW2 is great, but I prefer games with substantial content updates, and that cost money. Which means it needs a subscription fee to sustain itself.

    All these recent MMOS slapped a subscription on their games after the fact. They had no intention of reinvesting that money into updating the game. It was just a cash grab for them!
  15. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would imagine they would go with a linear beam, and it effects the first person hit (meaning you couldn't target anyone in the back row with it). This would require CC players to move around a bit more than they're used to to get a clear shot. To be fair, the mechanics of this would be the same even with tab targeting, for example in GW2 the Mesmer Sword Bounce ability can be targeted at someone in the back of a pack, but if you fire it it will first hit the guy in front, and its clone spawning effect will proc on him rather than on the guy you targeted.

    Perhaps, but I do think that it's ample evidence that the subscription model is very high risk, very low reward.

    And yet GW2 has had more substantial content updates than ANY other MMO outside of paid expansion packs (around a dozen new dungeons of various sizes, one new permanent zone, several new temporary zones, armfulls of new gear, a bunch of new minigames, highly complex holiday events, etc.). With no subscription they have added more content than I've ever seen out of a subscription MMO between expansion releases. And while GW2 still has not announced an expansion on the way, there's nothing technically stopping then from adding one, and I'm sure plenty of people would buy it if they did. When has a subscription MMO offered more over a year without having another $60 box attached to it?

    It was rather the other way around, they were designed from the ground up to be subscription games, back when that seemed like a plausible idea, and then had to scramble to figure out a model that would allow them to be profitable as a F2P when they discovered that the P2P model was bankrupt.
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  16. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that the only thing it proves is that the subscription model is the most profitable.


    You could put every GW2 update into 1 WoW update.
    GW2 does a decent job updating it's game, but how much longer will that last? Also, if they can do such a good job without a subscription, just imagine what they could do with one!

    After the subscription cash grab runs its course, those failed MMOs go into F2P mode to wring every last penny they can from the game. It's just one last cash grab, before they leave it up to dry.

    The only difference between a b2p and subscription game is end game content updates. So no, they didn't make the game from the ground up to be a subscription model. If they did, then they would have had updates ready post launch.

    Some games like Rift & LOTRO did, and they went on to succeed with the subscription model. Eventually they had to transition into F2P, but that is a necessity given enough time. People seem to forget about these games though, and just assume they didn't exist, or did poorly.
  17. Scarzi

    Scarzi Cupcake-About-Town

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    GW2 combat is so clunky and stiff. It doesn't flow at all. If this game can pull off combat like Dragon's Nest. It will be huge.
  18. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Theoretically, but only if it works spectacularly well, which no game in the past five years has managed. Now, either every MMO released in the past five years has been truly and objectively HORRIBLE, which just seems unlikely given their strong pedigrees and how well they've done after going F2P, or you need to accept that the market has moved past the subscription model, and every MMO other than WoW has found that F2P models are more profitable for them than the subscription model was.

    I'm similarly cynical about every MMO released over the past 2-3 years as a Subscription game, but that really doesn't cast Carbine in a very favorable light, or give any credence to the idea that the subscription model is viable. It's basically saying "yeah, the sub model is doomed, but it is good for gouging early adopters, at least.

    Most subscription games have fairly minimal updates soon after launch, they sort of assume they have a few months before enough players burn through the existing content that they have anything to worry about. By contrast, as a B2P game, GW2 was able to release plenty of post launch endgame content, faster than any other game I've seen. I don't believe that most of the Sub->F2P games necessarily intended that from the start, if only because their core design doesn't seem very well structured to be based on a cash shop.

    i just get this feeling that you have prejudice here. That you're attaching all these "things I like" as being inherent and inalienable from a subscription game, even though the vast majority of subscription games lack them, while attaching all these "things I don't like" to all B2P games, even though some B2P games lack those issues entirely.

    Both games were more profitable as F2P than when they were subscription based. They succeeded as F2P, not P2P, they just didn't crash and burn immediately like TOR or TSW.
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  19. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    checked it out, looked ok but dont like that "little bit to the side of character" view many TPS are using nowadays.

    Tera did it ok, although i would like more hotbar skills instead of mashing left and right mousebutton over and over. 5-6 skills re to few, 15-ish is about right.

    I just dont want to end up constantly pressing A or S strafing like a monkey and jamming dodge more then i use my skills fighting the enemy
  20. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ehh LotrO was succesful for years before it went F2P. It was only when it started declining after 3 years and Warner took over they decided to monitize. The game has turned c rap since then.

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