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The Gatekeeper "Mechanic"

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by AcidBaron, May 11, 2013.

  1. Zwipe

    Zwipe Cupcake

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    Thank you, and welcome to you as well ;]

    You do make valid points. I've been in fights when the boss was at 10%, and wiped because someone didn't catch the adds. Man, was that frustratiing...lol

    If you think about it, all 5-man dungeons leading up to endgame 'should' provide the training needed to perform at raiding level.

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't have one. I would prefer one actually, due to the reasons I stated previously. I just feel that it may be better implemented as a training dummy instead of a one time test.

    If your looking for a "certificate of competency" of some sort, I think a 'Zelda Triforce' method would work better instead of a single boss. At least you would know that they've done all of the previous dungeons, plus the old dungeons will not become obsolete.
  2. Teehk

    Teehk Cupcake-About-Town

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    Concept sorta reminds me of being ready for Black Temple kill that giant robot outside of BT and your ready to go in :p
  3. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    As stated before you have to look at it from two perspectives to give everyone a better experience in group content.

    I mentioned this before but i'll point it out again nowadays you have players like me who are nearing close to 12 years in mmo's, people who started out in WoW, people who started out in lotr, swtor and so forth.
    As with anything time makes perfect the longer a person plays the more natural and better people get at it.

    This skill difference is a problem, because generally a random group exists out of different people expecting different things, i would expect it to be normal for the healer to dispel, however the healer could be new and never had to dispel in their life.

    Generally that person will have to deal with a lot of grief before he learns the ropes, so therefor this gatekeeper is good. I won't remove all the grief but it will make it so once a person enters a group they know the basics.

    A gatekeeper would make certain the person is aware of the basics, it's a minimum "knowhow" entry point, the point of misunderstanding here is people thinking it's some how an obnoxious hard encounter, while the truth is it's not. And if a person is unable to do so they wouldn't feel at place to do a dungeon, unless of course they are there to be carried.

    This is currently also a great issue in WoW if you played it as of late, therefor Blizzard has been working on a "proving grounds" feature for some time now to deal with this. Although considering the in the light of blizzards accessibility design mantra it will be an optional part that players might make mandatory to join their pug raid.
  4. Sera Serenity

    Sera Serenity Cupcake-About-Town

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    I personaly do think that the TSW gatekeeper mechanic is a brilliant approach to see if you are ready for "harder" leveled material.

    I remember on my first attempt I tried a leach healer build, what a disaster, switched to fist heal with blood, worked better, then on the third try fist/pistol build to get the single target clean up, and got him...
  5. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Just to put this here, another game recently added this concept of letting players train and improve on their own it being the game that it is i will not hinder accessibility directly but the community might.

    New Feature: Proving Grounds
    • Proving Grounds is a new feature for individual players to test and improve their combat skills.
    • At the Proving Grounds, players may undertake trials, designed for Damage, Tank, or Healer roles.
    • It provides a great opportunity to learn how to Tank or Heal, without the need of a group.
    • Each trial is available in four separate difficulties: Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Endless. Harder difficulties include more difficult and varied enemies.
    • Endless mode allows you to test your mettle against increasingly difficult enemies. Compare your best scores to friends and guildmates!
    • [PTR]: Access to the Proving Grounds and more information is coming soon.
    So all the more reason to look for something like that in Wildstar.
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  6. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

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    The endless mode would be the big draw IMO, how long can you last out against an increasingly difficult challenge. With the emphasis on weekly ratings, Carbine could even implement a table of who's done best that week alongside the fastest raid clears, top PvP groups and most invulnerable Dominion Warplot!
  7. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I think this could do something huge for pre-raid. Like gate access to matching tools, so if you complete an occasional role gatekeeper, you get access to the next tier of "looking for" instances - it adds skills to the current requirement of having a minimum of gear that most game systems use.

    With such a gate, the instances themselves can be more challenging, because rather than tuning them to the possibility of a totally inept group - or dumbed down which is the usual expression used - the instances can be tuned to the expectance of a minimum performance level of the roles in the group that is at least as challenging as what the gatekeeper mechanics requires. If it is done for every tier of non-solo instance content, it can progressively require more of the player skills as the player develope and level their character.

    I am a huge supporter of such a gatekeeper mechanism, both for the individual to access matched teamplay, but also the instance machanicsas with the gatekeeper, that shows a struggling raid, that if they have a problem presenting the dps to beat the gatekeeper as a raid, then there is no chance in hell they can beat the boss that requires 20% more to get him down before enrage alone, not counting extra boss mechanics such as healing the boss received from the raid failing on countering such mechanics. The gatekeeper(s) shows where there is ample room for improvements to beat the content.

    A gatekeeper sets a standard, and it becomes a goal for those, who cares just a tiny little bit about their character developement and skills to oovercome it, just as a raid gatekeeper tells a raid, that it is time to either fall back on farming done content or step it up.

    EDIT:
    LoL has something of the same name.

    WoW apparently talked about this last year, and it is comming in 5.4. I hope they do consider connecting it to their match maker systems - I would rather be able to check a box for wanting a group of people passing proving grounds, than for people on same server, tbh.

    EDIT:

    It is a great concept, and while we may not see something like it at launch, I feel this is a concept that could fit very well into Carbines overall philosophy. So maybe we will see it in a patch, if it is about not just gate keeping but putting in solo challenges that gets progressively harder - this is actually a great concept for solo progression in ones prefered role.
  8. Jarek

    Jarek New Cupcake

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    Having played tsw I have to say that the gatekeeper was awesome... the only downside was that once defeated you couldn't repeat it for another role (tsw being freeform means you could play all roles). However moving the gatekeeper forward into a proving ground would be cool too - demonstrating your ability in harder content. This mechanic could be applied to raid gating, lfg/character sheets and it could also be applied to solo content - providing a meaningful way for healer solo play for example (why a healer would solo as a healer I have no idea BTW).
  9. Falkirk

    Falkirk New Cupcake

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    I think this is a pretty good idea. Adds a flare of achievement in a solo area that has meaning... Almost a "right of passage" into a larger social group. Yesterday you were a pug, but today *sniff* you are a raider congrats!
  10. Tarchannen

    Tarchannen New Cupcake

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    I think it is very important to have community input on this kind of thing. Additionally, I think that even if these gatekeepers existed, the final judge would still be public opinion. If you passed all the gatekeepers then failed the group/raid multiple times, you would still get the boot or at least sent to your respective class-lead for re-evaluation. Which then begs the question: Why make this unnecessary middle step?

    If your goal is to teach people to play their roll well, then this can be more creatively handled. You can easily set up a quest, such that NPCs are involved and it's intended to be for a solo person. Then tune it so that a person with this range of gear (Tank/DPS/Healer, doesn't matter) can succeed. Either by exploding the baddies, healing the good guys, or soaking the damages. Do those throughout the game in different and clever ways. Also, attunement quests achieve this if they force grouping. I remember testing recruits on MC attunement runs, no shortcuts allowed. This accomplishes the same thing, builds comradery, and emphasized teamwork. Plus it gives organizers/leaders a chance to assess the new guy's strength and weaknesses.

    As for "training" bosses, please no. When you get to a boss for the first time (assuming it is new content: no kill videos or walkthroughs), it should be a 100% new experience. Figuring out those mechanics for the first time is so rewarding. It makes the final execution so much more rewarding too.

    Maybe I'm weird, but the idea of being thrown into a new experience and asked to do an important job has always been an excellent motivator.

    [edit] I could see this as being a kind of challenge mode though, instead of a player check.
  11. Leviathain

    Leviathain New Cupcake

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    Raiding in a hardcore environment requires you to dodge and adapt to basic boss mechanics while keeping a flawless rotation. This is how guilds find out if dps is up to par, as well as hands on evaluation which is also how you know if your tank/healers are any good.

    That being said i think the idea of a "GateKeeper" it's good and i think this idea can work but i just don't think its necessary because of the "system" it's all evaluation and in terms of dps and especially healers and tanks all you have to do is pay attention to what they are doing, you can easily evaluate someone who is not ready for the encounter you are on just by seeing how many times they died. If they didn't die then check their positioning and evaluate the spells they are using which you can get from a simple damage/heal/mitigation meter. If group 4 is dieing every attempt you can find the problem. If the tank is dieing because the other one doesn't know what taunt is.... there is a good hint he isn't ready.

    in terms of the "training bosses" I'm more old fashioned i suppose but i believe that players should be taught these things through dungeons and questing to a point were they are efficient enough to benefit a raid group themselves. From there i think you should just get experience raiding, it's the easiest way for someone to learn. There is always people looking to raid and there are guilds who recruit anyone so as long as people don't go looking for a hardcore guild when they are new to raiding and system should sort things out itself.

    All I'm saying is that WildStar doesn't need to recreate the wheel here. The system is good already and guilds have adapted and know how to find problems when it comes to their raids. The gatekeeper isn't really needed because if your on nightmare mode/heroic mode... Well then you should already know what your doing.

    Good idea and could work in a lot of games but the hardest part of 40 man raiding i had was getting 39 people and getting them to log on when needed. Maybe that's what we should be worried about ;)
  12. PatriotBob

    PatriotBob Cupcake

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    Well yeah, we could evaluate each person, for each role and see how well they do. But the whole point of the "gate keeper" is to ensure that all people that your going have in the group are at least able to grasp the key concepts to a certain degree. It takes out a lot of the guess work. The last thing I want to worry about when running a raid is to have to watch as some mentally deficient player proceeds to do everything wrong and ruin the other 39 people's day.

    I'm sure guilds will still do proper evaluation for recruitment, at least the sets the entry level to a known and would make pugs for the content behind the gate keeper at least somewhat less frustrating.
    And it's all at the cost of adding 3 quests to the game. (One for each role) Personally that seems like an amazing bang-for-buck feature to add.
  13. Leviathain

    Leviathain New Cupcake

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    I don't often pug so that thought had not crossed my mind. Now with that in hindsight as long as the gate keeper is at entry raid level not hardcore this could do some form of good.
  14. Drarorm

    Drarorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am totally up for this ^^.
    Warning : I am stupid and I write stupidly random things, the things below me may just be a waste of time and bunch of mumbo jumbo.

    Personally, I have never raided before. I have never hit max level in a MMO which offers this max level hard content, such as raids, so I have never experienced this and being so, I am quite frankly a bit of stressed , that I will reach max level and don't know what to do, I will just start looking at guides at what to do before raids, how to become ready for them, though I never trust myself with this stuff and I never feel ready and after that I screw up people's games and make them lose time and elo, ( elo, because I am using ranked LoL games as a example :ninja: ). So a gatekeeper, something that tells me you will need to do this, this and this and if you do them well and defeat me then you are ready, sounds like a pretty good idea to me and something to boost my moral up :up:.

    Just to be well done, so it isn't just some gimmick, like use 5 heals on this person, taunt me 3 times, deal 1k damage, etc.. , I wanted to say something about the difficulty here, though I am having problems deciding if I want this fight to be nearly impossible or not, because if you look at it at the easier side, this boss will be solo content for you and in the raids you will be with 39/19 other people, so normally this fight has to be significantly easier and just to show you what is your role in that 40/20 group, though in the same time, this makes the barrier of entry really low, still it will be challenging, but I don't think it will be enough, I am again comparing this to my LoL experiences and I really don't think this will be enough, though if it is nearly impossible, would we throw people off the content and is it bad that we lose those people? Though in the end I think what the gatekeeper should be able to teach you, is that if out of the 40 people who are with you, if somehow 30 die and you from the last 10 standing,then the gatekeeper should have thought you that now this should be your role and this is how to contribute at this time, so the last 10 standing of you will be able to revive the others and keep doing the raid and not just to surrender. Basically the gatekeeper has to teach you to be a Spartan. ( Again comparing this in my mind to LoL, if your other 4 teamates die and you are the last one standing and your base is now open and you are near a lost, you should be able to somehow hold them off for those 50 seconds, until your team respawns, you should be able to distract them/try to kill some of them/nobly sacrifice yourself, something to speed up the time, until the others are there to back you up. Not quite sure how this relates to raids and if i am even making sense with this, but still that's how I feel about them ).

    And something else that the gatekeeper may need to test out is the dodging of telegraphs, because that will be a pretty big part of the battles and you must know at that level when to use your dodge.
    Also, about how will the gatekeeper recognize your role and build, can't there be some testing dummy, which you deal damage to, before you enter the lair of the gatekeeper and based on that damage it puts you against the right gatekeeper, or the damage can't always recognize the other stats of the build?

    Mumbo Jumbo :coffee:.

    PS: 100 posts FTW :p
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  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's a great idea. Obviously there are always ways to mess something up, but too often games have a 2 minute tutorial at the very beginning and then just leave you to it. Oh, you learned 50 extra spells since the beginning of your 150 hour journey? We didn't explain what they did or why they were important? Too bad.

    A gatekeeper mechanic is a great end game tutorial that would help so many people prep for raiding without wasting others' time or their own because it's solo content at the player's leisure.

    Why have I never seen or heard of this before? Brilliant!
  16. Sia

    Sia New Cupcake

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    By playing with them, getting to know them. :)
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  17. Tarchannen

    Tarchannen New Cupcake

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    Yeah, that was basically the entire point of my long-winded post. 100% Agree
  18. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

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    I see a few possible issues with implementing a "Gatekeeper" mechanic. First thing I think of is the fact that gameplay mechanics should already be covered throughout standard gameplay, otherwise overall PvE content is too lacking in my opinion. If a player has not learned how to play within 50 levels of gameplay, I personally doubt a single encounter will make that big of a difference for them unless the rest of the game's content until that point was simply lackluster in variety. This is simply a minor nitpick of mine and is not as much a major concern.

    The first major concern I have is the Gatekeeper may reduce seeking accomplishment through party variety. If there is a single Gatekeeper trial that requires specific optimal mechanics then this is minimal preparation for encounters with differing mechanics, and is no more preparation than letting the players simply run smaller party dungeons or solo instances with bosses. If there is a Gatekeeper for every dungeon that tests for specific mechanics then it runs the possibility of reducing potential party variation for the dungeon. If the Gatekeeper tests healers for a set amount of healing and then the raid only ever requires 2 healers that are qualified to bypass the Gatekeeper then this makes it needless for runs to ever invite more than 2 healers. This also threatens to not make it an option for a Guild to maybe drop one DPS and bring 3 less qualified healers in order to compensate for one or more being lesser geared. This issue could be bypassed entirely by making the Gatekeeper a simple test of gameplay mechanics, but if this is all it is then this could easily be achieved in an advanced tutorial.

    The biggest issue related to the concern above is if the game's meta contradicts the implemented Gatekeeper requirements. If the Gatekeeper is required for entry, and clearing the Gatekeeper for lets say a Healer requires an optimized healing setup, this then becomes a worthless test if the meta decides that optimal healer builds have a different focus, such as instead of bringing 2 dedicated healers with full healing trays they prioritize 4 healers with half healing/half DPS layouts due to focus on very specific healing spell rotations. This same issue occurs if for example DPS is required to be able to kite/CC during their Gatekeeper trial, but optimized strategies leave CC up to Healers/Tanks, making CC powers overall worthless for DPS players. If players have a limited selection of powers they can take, and DPS builds have so many necessary DPS powers for varying situations that taking CC powers is more of a hindrance in the meta, then taking CC powers in order to pass the Gatekeeper merely hinders potentially viable players.

    My last issue comes with testing the capability in a solo situation for something that requires the player to be in a party of 40. Testing how well the tank can hold aggro in a mock battle against a Gatekeeper says nothing about how well he can hold against the party's individual dedicated DPSers, how well he can manage aggro rotations with/as an off-tank, nor how well he can actually generate the threat necessary to pull adds off of the party's designated healers (assuming heals have high aggro generation). Testing a DPS character's ability to DPS can mean very little if they must limit their own DPS in favor of allowing other members of the party to generate higher aggro, or if they must use lower DPS powers in case of some sort of damage reflect mechanic.

    Teaching all of the variable mechanics that a player may encounter in a team situation would require a very in-depth Gatekeeper, of which most of the knowledge would go over many player's heads anyway if it required an extended period of time to complete (short attention spans are plentiful). Reducing this time by teaching specific mechanics to specific classes can backfire if the meta decides these classes have different priorities than originally intended. These reasons are why I feel these mechanics should be taught through character progression, smaller instances/dungeons and/or tutorials as opposed to a single encounter at level cap. If the Gatekeeper is a necessity then people that have difficulty will merely ask in chat, look at forums or look up quick Youtube videos for guides on how to clear the Gatekeeper, which is no different than how they would deal with any other boss battle they were having difficulty with.
  19. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not your major concern but I can easily address it. Group play and solo play are two different things. There are aspects of group play that can easily be passed over in solo play. I myself, rarely touch group play while leveling. It varies with the game, some times I'll run a dungeon once during my leveling, but for me that depends largely on how much it's part of the story.

    In a nutshell that's what the Gatekeeper in TSW is. They could easily have an advanced tutorial to make sure you know the basic group mechanics of your role and the gatekeeper would be the final test to make sure you understand it all.

    This actually did become an issue with the healer gatekeeper. In order to pass you needed a cleanse to remove debuffs from you and the dummies you were keeping alive. Well, if you run a nightmare dungeon and use a cleanse these days, you're doing it wrong or your DPS is. The players have decided it's better for the DPS to cleanse than for the healer. So basically healers have to pick up skills (there's a certain one in pistol that's suggested just for gatekeeper then you never use pistol again for healing) just to pass that aspect. And honestly, I have no real counter for this. All I can say is that Carbine knows the game they're making and if they use a gatekeeper, maybe they can change it later if a similar issue comes up.

    They could do this pretty well actually. The DPS test could have a tank with not great aggro, high enough that the DPS can be active but low enough the DPS has to watch what they're doing or else they'll pull. The Tank test has adds swarming in and he has to grab the adds or the dummies die and he fails.


    It would just be the basics of the role, cover a few themes if you will. And just because they look up a guide doesn't mean they can still pull it off. In TSW I knew someone who couldn't pass the gatekeeper. She was a horrid healer but she insisted she was great. She looked up guides, asked me for help, even ended up copying my build and farmed up better gear than I had when I took on gatekeeper and still couldn't pass it. This is the point of the gatekeeper. Now she was a fine DPS, and when she finally gave up on healing she went 'lol I'll go flail dps now' and passed gatekeeper first try no help. She never went back to healing last I knew.
  20. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    The point is doing so before playing with them, if you read my whole post you would see that hanging on to the idea that players suddenly becoming more tolerant of another is believing in an utopia. We know players are judged, this won't go away therefor rather a decent method of doing so instead of a gearscore number that diminishes in time and still says nothing.

    Having been a raid leader for different types of groups, time is no longer on your side and yes i do find if players wish to engage in group content they need to do some preparation first. If you ever raid led this would be a gift as it removes a lot of hassle on everyone directly involved, including the person in question.

    Again by only reading part of my post you missed the bit where i stated this is not just a barrier mechanic but also to prepare the person in question for a more enjoyable raid introduction experience.
    The alternative would be such a person having to deal with LFR mechanics and we both know how tolerable groups are to a fresh of the batch tank to pick a role of something that cannot hide in the group.

    This philosophy strikes in against the current accessibility WoW mentality but does not against WS plans of having exclusive group content.

    @Vhael

    The gatekeeper is a basic mechanics test, not an optimization test of one self. As optimization in group setup cannot be achieved solo.
    So it's not contradictory as those healers would know what to go for in a burst setup in addition to other setups, as given in the example.

    It is an advanced tutorial, but an advanced tutorial with a build in gear and awareness check that is adjusted to the theme of the content it's being a gate keeper for so it fits into the picture and becomes part of the the content.

    If a tank can hold aggro of a gatekeeper and cannot in a group of high dpsers the blame lies not with the tank but with the DPS, period. I've been tanking for a long long time and i'm well aware there are people that think bursting every single cooldown right at the second i go for my first hit is being a good dps.
    If you as dps can't control your burst you're making everyone else lose dps by having the tank trying to pick it up and everyone else is holding of wasting a good 20 to 30 seconds from my experience.

    Again a gate keeper is there to tests the basics, not gear you for a specific encounter. I also find it hard to believe that a person would have issues in a LAS setup where we can swap around freely would suddenly become unable to play and adjust.

    If a person learns how to actively either defensively or offensively dispel from a gatekeeper he's not going to lose that know how, the whole raid might never need him or her to do so and i don't see how that would mess up the meta.

    If they look up the gatekeeper and learn how to move past it, that doesn't beat its purpose as they learned by other sources how to counter it, but they learned how to counter it. Regardless if they did it on own intuition or by mimicking something, they learned.

    Again the gatekeeper doesn't mimic raid abilities and that would remove a fun part of raids by discovery, you're over thinking this.

    Either you're unaware of the examples given in the light of that specific game (TSW) What i said to not take literally to apply to here or you're unaware we'll a sort of similar setup here with being able to swap abilities around.

    I find your argumentation against it rather strange and far fetched.

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