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The Major Problem with Wildstar is that it will be Too Skill Dependent

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Sandmoth, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    I know people are going to hate me and disagree with this but it should be said anyways. Wildstar is a very skill dependent game, but that's not always a good thing. Making a game require too much skill will turn it into a haven for elite/skilled players and a nightmare for average/normal players.

    Don't Believe because you have always been told everything should be based on skill? Fine then watch this:
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  2. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    pretty nice video sums up pvp in almost any game.
    thanks
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    It's not a major problem because they want it to be a haven for elite/skilled players, or haven't you actually looked into the game?
  4. BisonBeeblebrox

    BisonBeeblebrox Cupcake

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    Good video. I always agree with what Extra Credits has to say.
    However, could you explain exactly how the game is too skill-dependent? Is this concerning their combat system involving telegraphs?
  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I disagree that its too dependent on skill. Low ttk and rng stats takes a lot of the pressure off. I understand your argument, but I am forced to disagree. As Convicted said, they are attempting to train players while leveling meaning they want skilled players at endgame.
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  6. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    The amount of casual/average players vastly outweigh the elite/super skilled players any day of the week. If Wildstar wants to be successful, then they need to pay close attention to the skill vs power relation of abilities like said in the video.
  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Not if they go out of their way to turn said casual/average players into skilled ones.
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  8. plic70

    plic70 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed.

    Sandmoth,

    Carbine has said that they will be "training" players as they level. That a player will use and see new telegraphs, a wider variety, and a ton of different combinations in telegraphs. Since no one but press can talk about Wildstar Beta we don't know how the pacing will be.
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  9. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    Wildstar seems very dependent on movement and aiming which is great; however, once you start factoring in abilities also it could easily become too complicated much too quickly. Players may become overwhelmed and the game experience would feel more stressful rather than fun.

    A lot of Wildstars class abilities seem complicated already without factoring in movement and aiming. Imagine factoring in an advanced level of movement and aiming that no other MMO has ever come close to before while at the same time executing complex CC chains with abilities that are more complex and interactive than any other MMO has tried. At the same time players are still going to have to pay attention to buff timers, dot timers, cool downs, not missing a spell in your rotation, health, and mana. Then if a player wants to be good he has to pay attention to all this stuff for his/her self and their opponent.

    The way to fix this is to make some abilities very easy to execute and be very powerful, but still slightly less powerful than advanced techniques. The devs also need to pay attention to how many abilities they make for each class. Too little and it makes things feel boring, but too much and it makes things feel too complicated.

    WIldstar already has me hooked with everything else, but I believe that it is going to come down to this skill to power relation. Wildstar seems so dependent on player skill ,even in pve, that everything is going to hinge on this skill to power relation. If they get it right, then the sky is the limit. But if they get it wrong, then it has the potential to ruin their entire game. That's the problem with making a game overly skill dependent.

    EDIT: You can call me a scrub or whatever, but it's starting to sound like I am going to have to become more machine then human in order to play WIldstar well. And quite honestly that doesn't sound like fun.
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  10. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I think saying this is over-exaggerating would be an understatement. In fact many gaming sites and youtube videos have players commenting that the game is low skilled and made for children ages 5-10, I think you should go make your case to those people.
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  11. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    Just go watch some of the videos any person can clearly see that Wildstar is far more movement demanding, for avoiding attacks and aiming, then any other MMO out there.

    On top of that look at how much more interactive these abilities are:

    It's too early to say exactly, but it seems that this game is shaping up to be a perfect storm for paralyzing complexity.
  12. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    What are you worried about son? Are you ascared of leveling up? Afraid the quest monsters might get you?

    This part here tells us you are afraid of Pvp.....

    you know there is casual unranked BG's right? They even make everyone equal so you dont have to worry about the big bad skilled players, are you saying that even that is too hard for you?
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  13. Galium

    Galium Cupcake

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    Hard to have a discussion about the skill cap of the game with most folks not having played it, I have no idea if it is hard or not. What I do know that if this game does require skill it will be the first one in a bunch of years and thus a refreshing change. Granted there are issues, and the video does a good job of spelling those out. The key is encouraging players to get better and helping them do so. Skill cap of the game is irrelevant if you do a decent job of that.
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  14. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    I knew this was coming. So are you going to tell me to L2P next, or are you going to call me a baddie mouth breather?

    I posted this stuff because over complication of mechanics seems like an issue to me, and I just wanted to share my thoughts.
  15. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    no, not at all, you don't need to L2P or any of that, the skilled players learn to play....that's how they get to be skilled. There are casual "non professional" activities for players who don't want to "L2P", feel free to enjoy those to your hearts content.
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  16. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    This is why there is a Las bar.

    What? an ability is still an ability. Its still poosh bootan. If anything the extremely low cooldowns and lack of rotations (which you claim are there, wut?) go a long way towards weighting the actual complicated bits to pre combat, ie whats on your bar. I mean even the "cc chains" are less time intensive than stun locking as a Rogue in WoW, or locking someone down with a Warlock when Fear and Seduce had different dr, or setting up a Shatter combo as a Mage.

    That already exists with things like disarm+tether.

    Do you really think Carbine doesn't know this? Are you not aware of them testing things like auto facing targets and the like?

    If you are going to play the "poor me" card you need to at least have a solid argument in the first place.

    Not really. Its not any more movement demanding than say Tsw or really even Tera.

    Its not that complicated though. They have already included massive support for telegraphs and honestly pretty simplified abilities to support the increased movement. I fail to see how it is any more "complex" than many of the other mmo's currently on the market. You could argue that learning a new skill set is complex, but I disagree. That is one of the features of a game. Any game.
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  17. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, you are going to have to learn how to play W* just like the rest of us, especially if you want to be good at it. But the W* Devs are not leaving us hanging like some games have done. The Devs are providing training and limitations right from the beginning.

    Your LAS is a limitation, but the Devs have carried it farther by limiting how many skills you can put on your LAS bar by levels, not just the skills you get at level. This means you start out simple, and get more complex as you gain more experience in the game. This is also true for Tiers and AMPs. You cannot select T4 until level 25, and AMPs do not start until level 6 (Hells, you cannot start crafting until level 10.). According to a vid I saw they do not dump all of the training on you all at once. You get it when it’s appropriate; so at level 6 you will get some type of popup that will talk about AMPs, and it’s optional so you could just turn it off.

    Their also teaching you about telegraphs from the very beginning, with pretty much every MOB, not just Boss MOBs like many games do. In the first dungeon at level 20, they start teaching you about more complex game mechanics, not when you reach cap.

    Seems to me the W* Devs have also seen your vid (I know I had.).

    It might be a complication if you want to do all of the content without putting in the effort to obtain the skill level required for the specific content, but that is true of any skill based…well anything.
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  18. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    Video is just 6 minutes of talking about cheese tactics. It's not a bad video, but the more pressing matter in this genre is that gear > skill.
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  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Its one of the easiest/best ways to keep players playing. Otherwise you chase out the bad ones that can't/won't learn. The question for Wildstar is whether they can train enough people to stay in business.
  20. Yamagishi

    Yamagishi New Cupcake

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    At this point, I can't really say too much about skill requirement in Wildstar. It seems a bit too early to tell. But, it is more about having a good way for players to learn and more skilled at a game while engaging in play, rather then "this game requires too much skill".

    One more recent example of teaching through gameplay that I like is Final Fantasy XIV. Many of the dungeons have mechanics in the game that they will show you in lesser and easier forms first before testing you on it in a final battle. For example a dungeon might require you to be close to a crystal to avoid damage. They give you a clear indication of "this spot is special" in a hallway that you are required to walk down, and a monster that will hit you hard, but not kill you. Then they bring that into a boss fight after having you go through it a number of times.

    And don't forget level progression and new skills, which in itself will cause people by their nature to try the skills out and adjust how they play to try and use this shiny new skill.

    I find that it is okay for something to require a good amount skill, however, this needs to be in a place where players are steadily being brought up to the required skill level. So something like placing a level 10 in a dungeon with super complex mechanics is a big fat "No."

    All this being said, Wildstar works under a very simple and easy to understand idea. Blue ground means good for us. Red ground means bad for us, so avoid red.

    But, maybe I'm just really far off the mark.
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